How To Get Ballpark Figures for Cast/Crew?

[HowTheyDoThat]

Hi

So, let's say you're hiring actors and crew for a short....how do you get an idea for salary?

If the people are non-union? (From my preliminary research, Union Dp's would bump the budget up significantly--i.e. $800 a day. Didn't look into other guilds)

For example? An actor/actress with some experience but who's not a big name. Someone you found off backstage, for instance?

Rest of the crew? Gaffers, DP, Sound Techs, etc......


Remove variables such as:
--They love the script---they will hopefully like it, but it will not be something they are doing for free because they "love it".
--They love your prior work
--They are familiar with you



If you have produced/directed a short....not using friends but professionals, I'd be interested in hearing your input.


Additional question:

At what stage does a line producer become helpful/necessary?

If you're fronting the money, have a script, have locations, picked actors, main crew (DP,. Sound), etc.... what can a Line Producer do?

--secure permits?
--schedule the cast/crew
--hotels/rooming, food/catering, etc...

Can they find additional crew (gaffers, p.a's, drivers) or is it outside their purview? If so, who might be good for that?








Second Question:

I recall watching a documentary about the filming of From Dusk Till Dawn, and there was some sort of tension because it was a non-union film.

At what stage does this become important.

Obviously, if you're shooting a micro-budget short, it's not an issue. But how much of a problem is it now with features? With the advent of Digital, I will assume that there are many non-union crews. I like Unions, but I'm just wondering at what stage of film making it becomes an issue?


For instance, I'm assuming, but I would think most of the mumblecore catalog is non-union. A recent film I saw, A Teacher by Hannah Fidell, looked really beautiful and was great overall and I would say it was non-union, though I could be wrong.

When does the union issue become something that comes into play?

 

[jax_rox]

You call them up and ask them what their rate is.

Give them your spiel about how it's a great crew and a good story and everyone's working on it for free and then they can give you a rate or tell you they're not interested. I get many calls from productions wanting me to work for a cut-rate or free, and I generally weigh it up based on the potential that I might get other work, and who else on it I know.

The other option is to draw up a budget based on how much you have and how much you know specific things are going to cost (for example, camera kit rental costs x amount, our post package is costing us x, our Casting Director has told us the actor's agents won't let them go out for less than x/day). Then you look at how much you have and approach people with a set rate and hope they might be agreeable.

In regards to union vs non-union, to my knowledge it only affects you once you employ union crew on a union contract (others may correct me here).

In regards to your rate for union DPs, I know many DPs who are not (or would not be - for those local to me) union who go out for much more than $800/day, depending on the project.

Are you looking for a DP with their own camera equipment? Are you looking for a Gaffer with a 3-ton truck? Are you looking for DITs with their own carts and equipment? These will all effect the rates you'll be looking to front.

 

[HowTheyDoThat]

Thanks alot.

I wouldn't be inclined to approach people with a "work for free/peanuts because its amazing". I'd rather hire them at their rate. What I found a bit odd was that people don't (as a rule) give their rates upfront....from browsing Mandy - ProductionHub. I'm doing research at this stage, so I don't want to contact a bunch of people for a hypothetical.

I can get a rate for a 3 or 5 ton gaffer truck/ day-week rates for cameras, but the individuals (DP, gaffers ,editor, etc...) don't seem to list it.


Some additional questions, if you don't mind.

When people/ a production contacts you how often do they try and get a cut/low rate? Putting aside friends/associates. Is it unusual for someone to simply pay a persons rate? Or is there always haggling?

How often on a small project (short/ micro budget feature) is the director/producer the one contacting you? Or is it common for these small productions for the "money" ...even if it is the director/writer......to hire a producer to arrange everything?

When you discuss arrangements, are you often asked to refer/bring on people (gaffers, etc...)

More specifically, if a producer/director sees your reel, likes it, and you two agree on a quote, how feasible is it for you to suggest / recommend : gaffers, AC, etc....
Would it be realistic for a producer to not have to research and independently fill every single position on a short/small film( with a small crew)? Might they be able to find: DP, PSM, Editor, ...and have those people bring on others who they have familiarity with?

Thanks.

 

[Sweetie]

When people/ a production contacts you how often do they try and get a cut/low rate? Putting aside friends/associates. Is it unusual for someone to simply pay a persons rate? Or is there always haggling?

There's most often haggling. It really depends on the production company/production manager.

How often on a small project (shot/ micro budget feature) is the director/producer the one contacting you? Or is it common for these small productions for the "money" ...even if it is the director/writer......to hire a producer to arrange everything?

It's a how long is a piece of string question. There are many ways to put together a package. Traditionally, fully financed productions it's a producer putting the package together to get finance. There are more and more productions coming together when it's the actors/directors packaging themselves looking for producers to put it all together and garner finance. So it really depends.

When you discuss arrangements, are you often asked to refer/bring on people (gaffers, etc...)

Often, yes.

More specifically, if a producer/director sees your reel, likes it, and you two agree on a quote, how feasible is it for you to suggest / recommend : gaffers, AC, etc....

Often, yes. If you like the way things are working, why change the way it works?

Would it be realistic for a producer to not have to research and independently fill every single position on a short/small film( with a small crew)? Might they be able to find: DP, PSM, Editor, boom op....and have those people bring on others who they have familiarity with?

Shorts are often a different beast all together. The way I see it, they fall into 3 main categories. Large budget, small budget and no budget. It'll also depend on how the person with the bag-of-cash wants their money spent. Since short films rarely see a return, it's not an investment.

Large budget gets to pay people. Depending on the bag-of-cash person and their reasons for making the production, I'd expect them to let the HOD's pick their team.

At the small budget levels, you have so few funds available, you may only get to pay for food, props, some wardrobe/locations, the occasional bit of equipment and then pay people a pittance for who you cannot get to volunteer their time and equipment. It's often who can bring the best people in for free that gets on.

At the no-budget level, it's all about who can get the people and resources needed to make the production happen.

The big thing is, anything can happen. There are no real right and wrong ways to put teams together. Some ways work better in certain situations than others.

 

[AudioPostExpert]

You seem to be asking specifically about production crew, rather than the total crew required? There's not much difference between these if you're talking about a no budget amateur short but there can be a very significant difference if you're talking about other types of filmmaking.

The difficulty with answering your questions is that you are not being specific enough. Most shorts are made by amateur filmmakers with little/no budget but some are made by experienced filmmakers with fairly substantial budgets (several tens of thousands), as maybe promotional material to help attract funding for a full feature or for some other reason. There are also of course commercial advertisements (which are a type of short) and these can have budgets which exceed the average per minute cost of even Hollywood blockbusters! The answers to your questions could be very different depending on which type of short you're talking about. Furthermore, where you wish to show your film also usually has a huge impact on the resources required to make it and therefore the cost. That's why most professionals (including me) won't publish a rate, because what I'm making, for what type of distribution, to what standard and in what time-frame can change the cost by a factor of over 100 times and in extreme cases could be over 1000 times!

G

 

[mlesemann]

In the NYC area, where I am, it can also depend on the time of the year. Summer is high time for production, so crew tend to book up quickly which pushes rates up. Off-season people have fewer options so they may take a bit less.

 

[jax_rox]

the individuals (DP, gaffers ,editor, etc...) don't seem to list it.

APE explained it pretty well - I'll change my rate based on all sorts of factors.

When people/ a production contacts you how often do they try and get a cut/low rate? Putting aside friends/associates. Is it unusual for someone to simply pay a persons rate? Or is there always haggling?

It really depends. Haggling is not uncommon, and in my experience it's not uncommon for a production to approach me and simply say 'this is what we have budgeted for you, will you do it for that rate?'

How often on a small project (short/ micro budget feature) is the director/producer the one contacting you? Or is it common for these small productions for the "money" ...even if it is the director/writer......to hire a producer to arrange everything?

Honestly, it's pretty rare for me to work on a project that doesn't have a Producer attached. That's not necessarily because I won't work on projects unless there's a Producer attached (though I think it's a terrible idea for a Director to also Produce), and more just because almost everything I've worked on has had one.

In terms of who, specifically, contacts me? To DP something, it's usually a Director, though sometimes can be a Producer. To Focus Pull, I'll either simply get a call from the Producer, or I'll get a message from the DP asking if I'm free, before he/she sends my details to the Producer to contact me and discuss further details.

When you discuss arrangements, are you often asked to refer/bring on people (gaffers, etc...)

More specifically, if a producer/director sees your reel, likes it, and you two agree on a quote, how feasible is it for you to suggest / recommend : gaffers, AC, etc....
Would it be realistic for a producer to not have to research and independently fill every single position on a short/small film( with a small crew)? Might they be able to find: DP, PSM, Editor, ...and have those people bring on others who they have familiarity with?

I always work with crew I know. I pick my Focus Puller, Gaffer and Key Grip (I generally give the Producer a couple options in case one isn't available), and from there the Gaffer will bring on his Best Boy and electrics, the Key Grip will do the same, and I usually ask my Focus Puller to bring on a 2nd AC.

All those names and details get sent through to Production, and then the ball gets rolling with deal memos and everything else.

I think the Director should select the key HODs whose work they like and from there the rest of the crew can be worked out by others.
From a visual perspective, I think it's really important the Director selects a DP and Production Designer whose work they really like.