How many of you self-fund your first feature?

[JoshL]

I like wine too, but if I had 200 glasses forced down my throat by a market, I might be get tired of it.

Sounds like the party is just getting started!

To answer your question though, formula and/or throwaway films like slashers and romance (more visible in romance novels...seriously, go into a book store and just LOOK at them all) are always being done because the audience is new. Teens watching a brand new slasher film haven't seen the hundreds before. After seeing it, even if they liked it, they don't often go back to watch all the films of the past. They just take what's new, and it is new to them in every way. A small percentage do become fans of the genre, and dig up old films to watch and/or collect, but by that point they're already FANS, and perfectly willing to sit through the same story with a different coat of paint. But that's the exception, not the mass audience.

I also really like the scale of hobbyist to filmmaker. I love that we have people on all points of that scale around here!

 

[knightly]

And I and many of my friends often go to the video store (or now the vacant lot where one used to be) and look for the worst campy horror films we can. Roger Corman built an empire doing this.

Horror
Sci Fi
Porn
Religious

These genre have fans that will buy anything put out. Perfectly valid avenues for low/micro-budget filmmakers to get distro deals and build a following and make a profit.

 

[rayw]

Horror
Sci Fi
Porn
Religious

These genre have fans that will buy anything put out. Perfectly valid avenues for low/micro-budget filmmakers to get distro deals and build a following and make a profit.

Combine all four into a single feature and quadruple your market!
It's crazy!

 

[Kholi]

And I and many of my friends often go to the video store (or now the vacant lot where one used to be) and look for the worst campy horror films we can. Roger Corman built an empire doing this.

Horror
Sci Fi
Porn
Religious

These genre have fans that will buy anything put out. Perfectly valid avenues for low/micro-budget filmmakers to get distro deals and build a following and make a profit.

And Asylum's making bank doing similar. You don't really have to make something good, obviously. If you want to make something good, well, then that's the filmmakers choice. But, you did have a choice.

 

[harmonica44]

Oh wow, I had more confidence making something different, rather than doing something that's been done hundreds of times before. Hmm well, the script I want to do... I suppose I could turn it into part horror film. I just have to change most of the gunfight/fist fight scenarios, to slasher scenarios. And as far as romance, there is some but it ends in severe tragedy, if that's the kind of romance genre we are talking about.

 

[JoshL]

Do you really want to adapt the idea you feel strongly about into a genre you don't like?

Here's an idea for you; when you are ready to tackle a feature, if you want to do a slasher to raise money to do the movie you really want to do, find someone else to write it. Or possibly write it with you. Save the movie you care about for when you can put the care into it you want, yanno?

Oh, and that is not the sort of romance we're talking about.

 

[kyleprohaska]

My first film was mostly self-funded with little bits and pieces thrown in. I only made $25,000 a year at the time and spent every spare dime I had on buying equipment just to make the film possible. It took over a year to gather it all, and renting wasn't an option or borrowing. I lived in a town of 1200 and anything I bought was based on online reviews and whatever I could dig up.

The film was in the can for that $25,000 because nobody was paid, and we shot the film many days spread out over a year. Actors wore their own clothes, no makeup, we shot in locations we got for free, and the actors weren't even actors they were friends/family.

I was producer, writer, director, dp, editor, colorist, web designer, graphic designer, marketing guy, dvd authoring, etc. The only jobs left open were composing and the final mix which I got done later and were paid. I did have a gaffer on set who also held boom and actors carried what they could. It was a 2 man crew almost every day...hard work.

I did have to spend more to finish the film (like I said music/final mix) but doing so much in house kept everything free. A credit card was used eventually but only $5000 or so which was paid off before the film came out. A little investment here/there to finish up some lose ends and get the initial DVD copies made, but those were all paid back before the film came out.

This IS possible folks. The profits on the film have been substantial and we've done well across the board after being out over 15 months or so. We just came out on Cable VOD and online VOD, with TV Broadcast coming in late Spring 2012, national RedBox release, and we've been on DVD in over a dozen foreign countries with more coming.

Self-funding a project is risky, but self-funding a project that can't sell is even riskier, and most don't give that a thought. We all want to make our art, but we need to eat too. Make something targeted at a market you can sell in, and make it good enough to sell. Don't spend your life savings hoping to strike it rich. Anyone of us who reaches success is likely to stay in the 6-figure business, so keep that in mind. Know what other examples are out there in the market you're going for, and what they spent, and how they did. Shoot conservatively, not stupidly. Also, the more you can do yourself, the better off you are getting your foot in the door and getting started. The less fingers in the pie on the backend (if any) the better off you are because any profit that DOES come in, you want to keep that.

Next time I do a film, I look forward to getting some investment money but I'm still keeping it sub $100,000 for now, and I'll be paying people on the film but pushing as much money as I can to the production side, not the post-production or pre-production side where I can have a lot of muscle without the need to pay others. Marketing I specialize in now for others, so I can do a lot of that myself, but sometimes there's capital needed regardless not for people but for ads themselves. Knowing where/when to push that money is key, and I"m happy to be doing well in that regard.

It's not all a crapshoot, but it's not an exact science either. Bottom line no matter who's money you're spending, know your audience, know your end use, study the market, study your film, and if they don't match up...you're in trouble. Get it right while it's still words on a page, and you'll be better off then most of the yahoo's out there trying to give this a shot.

http://www.standingfirmmovie.com
http://www.facebook.com/standingfirm

http://www.twitter.com/kyleprohaska

Peace!

 

[harmonica44]

Do you really want to adapt the idea you feel strongly about into a genre you don't like?

Here's an idea for you; when you are ready to tackle a feature, if you want to do a slasher to raise money to do the movie you really want to do, find someone else to write it. Or possibly write it with you. Save the movie you care about for when you can put the care into it you want, yanno?

Oh, and that is not the sort of romance we're talking about.

I don't hate or like the slasher genre. I don't mind adapting it my script, if it's adaptable. The main reason why I don't like the genre as much as others, is that I find to be usually very short on character, and even plot for that matter most of the time. But if I adapted my suspense scenarios, into slasher ones, the script would still have the same plot turns, and character development I want. So I would like the genre more, for me in that case.

But like you all and kyleprohaska said, maybe I should do a script that more people will watch. I have a script half written about a serial rapist/killer committing crimes, and the detectives who has to figure out who, why, and how to stop him. I also have a cops vs. gangbangers conspiracy thriller one, almost done, but could use a couple of rewrites. Which one of those is more saleable, just so I have an idea what general audiences like. Both can be turned into horrors, if I just make the scenarios, more slasher, horrific types. I was leaning more towards the serial rapist/killer one for my first, cause I think the twists and turns are stronger. Usually movies like this are horror or thriller, but mine mixes a lot more with the techno thriller genre compared to other movies with these types of villains, and deals with social/psychological themes, that you would usually not find either. It's like Last House on the Left meets 24, and those were two of the inspirations. How is the audience market for that?

If it's best that I wait to do the movie I want I could do someone else's script first, if my two will not sell to the right audience. But since I would be putting 50K into it, I would need to know if the script was good, or good enough that it will sell the right audience. It would still have to be one I'd want to make, to be comfortable spending it.

I also cannot use my friends as actors, I have tried, but most of them cannot pull it off. I would have to find real actors, wanting to do the project. I have met two from my first short film, who are keepers and would love to work with them again. I even know what roles they would be perfect for in those two scripts, if they are still around and wanting to, by then.

 

[Gonzo_Entertainment]

And I and many of my friends often go to the video store (or now the vacant lot where one used to be) and look for the worst campy horror films we can. Roger Corman built an empire doing this.

Horror
Sci Fi
Porn
Religious

These genre have fans that will buy anything put out. Perfectly valid avenues for low/micro-budget filmmakers to get distro deals and build a following and make a profit.

That's my plan. It's all about having a defined audience and aiming your content right at them.

 

[JoshL]

I don't hate or like the slasher genre. I don't mind adapting it my script, if it's adaptable. The main reason why I don't like the genre as much as others, is that I find to be usually very short on character, and even plot for that matter most of the time. But if I adapted my suspense scenarios, into slasher ones, the script would still have the same plot turns, and character development I want. So I would like the genre more, for me in that case.

...and your market (people who like slashers) would like it LESS. I've seen this happen all too often (and been guilty of it myself, musically). "I hate this genre...wouldn't it be better if it was more like this?" Then fans of the genre dislike it because it's not what they're looking for. Fans of the genre you are shoehorning in don't like it because it's too much like the first. You end up with a niche between a niche inside a niche (to be fair, those five people who like your film, if they see it, will REALLY like your film).

Genre mish-mash can work (and really, some of my favorite things are like that). But it's hard because you need to fully understand and appreciate all the elements that you're putting in there.

What Kyle said was:

It's not all a crapshoot, but it's not an exact science either. Bottom line no matter who's money you're spending, know your audience, know your end use, study the market, study your film, and if they don't match up...you're in trouble. Get it right while it's still words on a page, and you'll be better off then most of the yahoo's out there trying to give this a shot.

That's knowing your audience. If you want to target the slasher crowd, find out what the slasher crowd actually wants, not what you think they should like.

 

[harmonica44]

Well the slasher crowd is young people who haven't seen many slashers before it right? So how will they know what they want if they are inexperienced moviegoers?

 

[JoshL]

Yes, but they're looking for the same thing.

Teenage boys want to watch random teenagers get cut up.

They don't want My Dinner With Andre. Slashers are a YOUNG market. Thrillers are an older market. Unless you really UNDERSTAND a slasher film, you're going to end up with something that's too slasher-y for a thriller crowd, and something too complex for a slasher crowd.

The people are different, but the market is the same, yanno?

 

[DeJager]

Yes, but they're looking for the same thing.

Teenage boys want to watch random teenagers get cut up.

They don't want My Dinner With Andre. Slashers are a YOUNG market. Thrillers are an older market. Unless you really UNDERSTAND a slasher film, you're going to end up with something that's too slasher-y for a thriller crowd, and something too complex for a slasher crowd.

The people are different, but the market is the same, yanno?

I like this response.

 

[Kholi]

So you know, though, Thrillers are supposed to be pretty good right now if you can get a name attached or it's hyper smart.

Personally, I wouldn't change my Thriller into a Slasher, I'd change it into a sci-Fi thriller.

 

[harmonica44]

Well changing my thriller into a slasher is a lot more do-able then adding sci-fi elements. But perhaps I should just keep it a thriller then. How many sequences of slashing or sequences of horror, does it have to have to be called a horror though? Mine has four, throughout the story, and of course with the climatic one being longer, and that's out of a movie which I aim to be around 95-110 minutes. More so chase/fight scenes, but give the characters knives and I could do it slasher style. If it has four sequences could it be marketed as a horror, so the horror audience will check it out? It won't be a slasher movie where the slashings are frequent, but perhaps some audiences will find the twisty plot, and character development in between, refreshing?

But that's just a thought. I won't mix genre's and stick to thriller for that script. If I do a horror, or slasher first, how do I know the difference between a good horror script and bad? I mean most of what teens like are pretty formulaic, so it's hard to distinct a good and bad therefore. So JoshL, are you saying that there is a microbudget market for thrillers as well?

Aside from that though, a lot of filmmakers seem to be making three shorts to see if they can get funding for a feature. Since most of you have to fund your own features, is what they are doing a lost cause? I guess the makers of Saw though, got a grant from the Saw short.

 

[Cracker Funk]

Well changing my thriller into a slasher is a lot more do-able then adding sci-fi elements. But perhaps I should just keep it a thriller then. How many sequences of slashing or sequences of horror, does it have to have to be called a horror though? Mine has four, throughout the story, and of course with the climatic one being longer, and that's out of a movie which I aim to be around 95-110 minutes. More so chase/fight scenes, but give the characters knives and I could do it slasher style. If it has four sequences could it be marketed as a horror, so the horror audience will check it out? It won't be a slasher movie where the slashings are frequent, but perhaps some audiences will find the twisty plot, and character development in between, refreshing?

Yes, it's that simple. Take away the guns from everyone in "The Matrix", replace them with knives, and you've got a SLASHER!!!

To answer your question, I believe the industry-standard minimum is 5 slashing sequences per film, in order to qualify as Horror.

 

[Dreadylocks]

Sometimes I think we're characters in this scene.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kmG7KXxShM

Only I can't decide if we are the Cardassian and monica is Picard, or if it's the other way around.

 

[Kholi]

But that's just a thought. I won't mix genre's and stick to thriller for that script. If I do a horror, or slasher first, how do I know the difference between a good horror script and bad? I mean most of what teens like are pretty formulaic, so it's hard to distinct a good and bad therefore. So JoshL, are you saying that there is a microbudget market for thrillers as well?

In the most plainly stated way: you are trying to straddle a line that you literally cannot afford to straddle. AFford meaning you do not have money.

If you only have 50K to complete a feature film, you choose from the get-go either you want to try to make something really good (not good for 50K, a good movie that people rate 7.5-10 on IMDB or high on Rotten Tomatoes) or you want to try to make money.

You can't afford serious talent, you can't afford serious gear, you can't afford serious locations (unless it's all a ONE location production), you can't afford serious action, you just CAN'T AFFORD IT.

Make a decision on what you want, then go from there. Your perception of good movies being profitable without names (and hell, sometimes with names) is based on an inexperienced filmmaker centric notion that "just making a good movie" is enough.

No, it isn't. Sorry.

Aside from that though, a lot of filmmakers seem to be making three shorts to see if they can get funding for a feature. Since most of you have to fund your own features, is what they are doing a lost cause? I guess the makers of Saw though, got a grant from the Saw short.

You are not the filmmakers of SAW. They were already working and building serious connections before they got that grant.

Choose your own path. You can only base so much on what other people are doing, because at the end of the day they can do things that you can't and vice versa. My budget will always look and feel ten times the actual amount for the most part, but my locations will always suck until I can actually get a serious budget.

There are filmmakers outside of LA that have access to incredible locations and favors that I could only dream of. A fellow filmmaker in Oklahoma shut down an entire stretch of road, had cars and a busses, a zombie horde and topped it all off with an aerial shot.

I couldn't do that here in LA without serious money. If these guys got a grant because of stuff like that, how can I possibly replicate their success if it would cost me (random number) ten thousand just to do that shot? I can't, I can only go on what I have available to me.

And that's all you and everyone else can do as well.

 

[harmonica44]

Yeah I am trying to minimize the locations in my thriller for sure.

But I will try to do things in my budget range. There are just a couple of complicated locations I want that won't be as easy. But not living in a big city like L.A. may help. So I will have to self-fund my own feature then. That's cool so long as the actors and crew don't keep backing and I have to look for replacements for reshoots. I should be able to keep from going to overbudget hopefully. I've already started pre-production now, even though I am shooting this feature in probably at least a couple of years. I want all the props and clothes now though, accept for the clothes, for later, when I will have to determine the actors clothes sizes first.

My friend started writing a script for a slasher movie which is not bad so far, but the victims in it are not teens. Would fans be okay with that, if they like cliches?

 

[Ponty301]

You are not the filmmakers of SAW. They were already working and building serious connections before they got that grant.

Choose your own path. You can only base so much on what other people are doing, because at the end of the day they can do things that you can't and vice versa. My budget will always look and feel ten times the actual amount for the most part, but my locations will always suck until I can actually get a serious budget.

There are filmmakers outside of LA that have access to incredible locations and favors that I could only dream of. A fellow filmmaker in Oklahoma shut down an entire stretch of road, had cars and a busses, a zombie horde and topped it all off with an aerial shot.

I couldn't do that here in LA without serious money. If these guys got a grant because of stuff like that, how can I possibly replicate their success if it would cost me (random number) ten thousand just to do that shot? I can't, I can only go on what I have available to me.

And that's all you and everyone else can do as well.

What a great response. I've already learned a lot more from this thread alone. Mr. Rodriguez did the same thing. He would write his stories (before he was successful) around the things he had access to. Dont write stories that you can't film...yet. you can write some scripts for the future if you ever get the money to do them, but for the mean time, write with what you have.