HOW IMPORTANT IS ...

[Ian Losz]

Hello

While this question is subjective (as is any art form), I would be interested in opinions of how important is it to have a decisive conclusion to your story?

In other words, is it neccessary to answer all the (major) questions to your story line ?

What, if anything, can be left to ponder ?

If you are writing a straight mystery then I understand it would best serve your readers to conclude with a logical solution.

However, if your story is more symbolic, alegoric, or suggestive, how far can you leave your audience guessing and still result in a thought provoking ending, yet entertaining film ?

I know this is a toughie, but if it wasn't, I would not be asking for opinions - LOL

thanks

 

[kgasser2]

you do NOT need to answer all questions. have you ever seen any david lynch films? its like he's messing with ur mind just for the sake of it. very weird stuff, no explanations for pretty much anything. especially mulholland drive. its your movie, you can do whatever you feel like doing. you dont have to do anything.

 

[wcmartell]

How do we know when it's over? And *is it over*?

You don't need to answer every question - and it's best that you don't. You do want to resolve whatever the main conflict is, so that we know the story is over... but you can even resolve it in ways that leave larger problems unresolved.

On some other board there was a discussion of TO LIVE AND DIE IN LA - an 80s crime film. In the story, the lead character is a Fed agent who will break any rule in order to bring down the bad guy. He gets a new, idealistic partner who believes the good guys need to be good guys and play by the rules. They two are at odds as they try to bring down the bad guy. By the end, they have brought down the bad guy... but the idealistic Fed agent is now just as corrupt as his partner. He has lost is soul. Though the bad guy is brought down (conflict resolved) the greater conflict of corrupt Fed agents who plant evidence and blackmail informants and do all kinds of evil things in the name of upholding the law has *not* been resolved at all... it has gotten *worse*.

You can also leave small things unresolved - and it's best that you do. If you resolve every single thing in a script it's just unrealistic. You want to leave some little things hanging to give keep the story "alive" in the audience's minds. When they leave the cinema they wonder about those small things.

If you don't resolve the main conflict - the conflict that the whole film is about - not only will the audience hate you, I will hate you personally. You have just wasted 2 hours of my life.

- Bill

 

[sonnyboo]

Dissonance can be used to engage the viewer, but it's ultimately up to you and if you can handle the audience reaction. Will you be okay if people don't "get it" if you leave an ambiguous ending? That's more the question. You can do whatever you want, but will you be okay if most people are angry at the lack of resolution?

I'm not saying I prefer one way or another. I love the ending to the Sydnay Pollack film THREE DAYS OF THE CONDOR (based on the book SIX DAYS OF THE CONDOR) and it has a some what vague ending, but there was still plenty of fulfilling aspects to the end. As long as the viewers get something for their troubles, then it's worth it.

 

[Ian Losz]

Thanks for the replies thus far. I do understand that there are no certain rules ... but there are recipies for a good films - and I would like to have at least the proper ingredients.

That said - Sonnybono - I very much liked THREE DAYS OF THE CONDOR - from the genre that actually required you to THINK and FOLLOW a plot.


I was more concerned that if you had a murder within your story, do you have to clearly reveal who was responsible or can you leave some doubt ? Is it enough to cast suspicion ?

I was terribly disappointed in THE NINTH GATE (Johnny Depp). I really liked the feel of the film until the final scene which left me with the "119 minutes of great foreplay - and 1 minute of shattered dreams" or leaving me to wonder how to get back 119 minutes of my life.

I do not wish to to THAT to anyone. However, I relish the idea of making viewers think, ponder and discus the possibilites after seeing the film.

cheers

 

[sonnyboo]

That said - Sonnybono - I very much liked THREE DAYS OF THE CONDOR - from the genre that actually required you to THINK and FOLLOW a plot.

It's SonnyBOO, not Bono....

I felt that SNEAKERS was almost a sequel to that movie, but yes - the semi-ambiguous ending where you don't know for sure about one thing, but ultimately the basic plot threads were tied up. There was satisfaction in THREE DAYS OF THE CONDOR, but the idea of leaving something open ended was cool.

As for a murder, that's a fine line. Most people like "WHODUNITS" to see, you know, Who done it... ask David Lynch about that with trying to solve who killed LAURA PALMER in TWIN PEAKS>

 

[Zensteve]

trying to solve who killed LAURA PALMER in TWIN PEAKS>

Funny you mentioned that, SonnyCher.

I rented the Twin Peaks pilot from Netflix a few weeks ago. It had the open-ended ending (that leaves space to expand into the tv series), as well as the European version of the film... which has a very rapid & rushed wrap-up ending to the film that I'd never seen before.

It was quite interesting to see that; not only as an example of what a hatchet-job it was, but also how the foreign market (apparently) demanded a stand-alone conclusion. Well, maybe things are different now (20 years later), but there was not going to be a theatrical release of Twin Peaks without an actual solid conclusion.

To get back to the original question, though...

if your story is more symbolic, alegoric, or suggestive, how far can you leave your audience guessing and still result in a thought provoking ending, yet entertaining film ?

I don't know the answer to this; even if I did it would be an opinion, regardless.

One thing I do know, is that the film Blowup pissed me off no end. My film buddies consider it to be a masterpiece of... something... I guess, but this thing (in my opinion, of course) was a total waste of time.

Spoiler

Not only did it not answer any questions about the murder, but also went to great pains to imply that there never even was a murder to begin with. With mimes playing tennis, no less!

Big fat waste of time.

On the other hand... you should probably watch it anyway, just so you can get an idea of the extreme edges of what you are discussing. Ambiguity and open endings.

 

[sonnyboo]

Loved both the European/Japanese easy wrap-up of TWIN PEAKS as well as the whole series (even when it got ridiculous - I bought the Gold Box set of the whole series).

That makes me think of another DAVID LYNCH film and how it relates to this topic. MULLHOLAND DRIVE. This was a somewhat "open ended" film in that it poses more questions than answers. Most people I think are satisfied because of the hot lesbian action with Naomi Watts than the story, but that's my opinion. Very few people of the general public understand what happens in that film

Spoiler

The entire first half of the film is Naomi Watts' fantasy and the 2nd half of the film is the revelation of what life was really like for her, and even then several plot points were left wide open because this was also a failed TV pilot that became a feature film

Most people seem okay not understanding the film, but that seems rare to me. My original post stands - if you're willing to gamble on the audience satisfaction level then I saw go for it. You can always write it and shoot it with a definite ending, then screen it without and see if you can get away with it, but then you're covered if it doesn't work.

 

[Unknown Screenwriter]

What Bill said...

If the murder you're talking about is the main throughline of the story then you should, at a minimum, cast some suspicion as to the WHO but no... You don't have to resolve it with who actually did it.

You can even HANG someone who didn't do it. It's all good. There are no rules. The recipe is not that you resolve it but that you cause us to wonder.

Look at the ending of BASIC INSTINCT... Almost a reverse of what you're talking about but still making you wonder but wonder in such a way that we don't feel ripped off.

What about THE USUAL SUSPECTS? I remember people being completely pissed off on the opening night of that film i.e., many said they were lied to. They didn't feel ripped off however.

Whatever.

Sometimes it's the being pissed off that can get others to watch your film.

filmy

 

[barnaclelapse]

The only thing about ending the movie suddenly and not answering all the big questions is that you have to really make sure that it's going to work within the context of what you've done with your movie so far. Usually, even when an ending comes out of nowhere, if it's done well, you still tend to feel like it was at least fit the flow of the story. However, if you just tack on an abrupt ending for shock value or because you've written yourself into a corner, the viewer may not be willing to buy the ending.

As for your story, yeah, I would definitely at least give the viewer some names to kick around at the end. Not a bunch, but two or three suspects could make for some fun arguments on the way home.

 

[Ian Losz]

Hey Sonnyboo ... (sorry about the bono) - thanks for your input.

Zensteve - I have seen Blowup and it drives home its story well enough. Good example.

The other examples given here have provided me with enough to satisfy my own mind as to "how much" I must leave for the audience.

In some of the other examples, however, the films are cast with well known actors which will invite many viewers on that fact alone. But, since we are talking Indie films - which I believe must rely on a stronger story to have any chance to succeedss, I thinks it is important.

Thanks for everyone's opinions. It was most helpful.

cheers

 

[M1chae1]

My two cents...

You don't need to wrap-up every little thing. Life is never that way...or at least a good portion of it is not. You can leave some things unanswered, and allow the viewer to ruminate on their own theories for a while.

Also, you don't need to wrap the ending in a big yellow bow.

As long as 'enough' is answered, and there aren't useless, confusing plot holes that put a haze over the entire story.

 

[spinner]

What about THE USUAL SUSPECTS? I remember people being completely pissed off on the opening night of that film i.e., many said they were lied to. They didn't feel ripped off however.

Whatever.

Sometimes it's the being pissed off that can get others to watch your film.

filmy

The Usual Suspects is one of my all time favorite films! I didn't feel lied to! The way I saw it,

Spoiler

you had a know-it-all cop going up against a criminal who was out of his league. Criminals lie, this one was extremely good at it and that's why he couldn't be caught.

I also think being pissed off ending is what brought others to the film. What gets me is those people who say they saw the ending coming. Liars, every one of 'em!

-- spinner

 

[spinner]

I definitely agree with what everyone has said about David Lynch. You can't watch a Lynch film the way you would watch an action film. You have to prepare yourself to watch any of his stuff. 'Lost Highway' is just crazy.

Okay, remember the ending of the first 'Matrix' film. The major or at least the immediate crisis of the story was wrapped up but left you wanting to know more. That is the trick that you will have to figure out how to show. You don't have to explain everything, but some level of resolution is enough to end your film.

I think another thing you also have to remember is to not assume that your audience won't understand or accept your premise. Viewers are smarter and more open to something unusual nowadays. If you have a good story, people will suspend plausibility. I mean there's no such thing as a hobbit, right?

Also, if the film makes sense that the ending doesn't tie up all the loose ends, people will accept that too. You don't have to have all the characters link arms and walk off into the Hollywood ending sunset. A film like 'The Virgin Suicides' has an ending that in some ways just leaves you bewildered, but it makes sense. Another example is 'Garden State', which is impressive because it still manages to be hopeful. It just has to make sense that it is ending this way.

I don't think there is a recipe for a good film. There are good premises that make you think and there are poorly thought out films.


-- spinner

 

[Unknown Screenwriter]

I didn't feel...

The Usual Suspects is one of my all time favorite films! I didn't feel lied to! The way I saw it,

Spoiler

you had a know-it-all cop going up against a criminal who was out of his league. Criminals lie, this one was extremely good at it and that's why he couldn't be caught.

I also think being pissed off ending is what brought others to the film. What gets me is those people who say they saw the ending coming. Liars, every one of 'em!

-- spinner

ripped off either... One of my favorite films. I was just saying that a lot of the audience members were pissed off at the ending but not ripped off.

That still works in my book.

filmy

 

[Lochsley]

I believe that the conclusion of a story should do just that - conclude. You could leave it open to thought, not answer EVERYTHING, whilst still giving a legitimate reasoning for what is happening. If you leave someone thinking "what in God's name just happened?" then people will be disatisfied. This is the final part of your story and regardless of how good the rest of it was, this is the last thing they think about when they leave the cinema.

I'd probably forget half of a movie's contents before the end as I'd be so swept up in the plot, and if the entire storyline ended abruptly, I'd be spend so much time trying to sort out the ambiguity and collect the information on what happened that I'd probably forget even more. I think a final scene should be a way to show what happened through a story in a nutshell, whilst concluding it.

Well that's my two cents.

 

[Weaponx]

A great example of a no answer ending that pretty much works is Cemetary Man. It is a hilarious dark comedy that sort of becomes more of a foreign film and has a strange no answer ending and is certainly worth watching. As long as you have a good conclusion I think you will be fine even without answering anything.

 

[Leah Kardos]

Anyone seen that French film "Hidden"? It leaves you hanging, and even throws a massive clue at you during the closing credits which cause you to question everything you had presumed before.

I loved it, cos it got me thinking and the people I saw it with - we all sat around for hours afterwards drinking coffee and discussing the details we thought we understood, and their meaning. I love films like that, and I don't easily forget them.

In the end maybe it depends on what kind of film you are trying to make. Does it have a message or underlying theme? do you intend to mess with people's heads just for the sake of it, or are you trying to draw the audience in to think a certain way in order to highlight your point...?

Actually, no matter what your purpose, I say do it anyway. Too many predicable and "satisfying" endings out there in movies. Make yours memorable.

 

[Jijenji]

I read a classic book a couple of weeks ago where the central conflict of the story was left unanswered.
A revolutionary trying to escape from the military police in a dictator state, goes into hiding.
At the end, just as he's on the verge of being caught and flees (the climax of the story), the final chapter switches to the viewpoint of a secondary character and the ending becomes an allegory.

The allegorical ending forces the reader (or in film the viewer) to interpret the ending according to the symbolism. Even then, the ending is open to interpretation.

This is a good way to end a story differently without it being a cliffhanger.

 

[Ian Losz]

conclusions

Jijenji ... Leah ... Weaponx

I appreciate your input.

I agree that is often easy too wrap everything up in a nice tight package. I think Indie film HAVE to be different to merit some notice.

And I am hoping to incite dialog, not controversy. Like many things in life there are unanswered questions - but not ones which are basic to our story - but ones that are often perpetual - love, immortality, human behavior, etc.

I think we found our conclusion as stories go, and still left enough unaswered to compel the viewer to reason on their own.

It is not neccessarily my "style" to leave an open end to my films, but in this particular case it suits it best.

cheers