sound How do you select music or sounds for your film?

[Mimi910]

The thing I currently have the most trouble with is adding sound. I am never quite sure where to add music or if I should add any at all. And if I should what type of music, how could I be sure it truly goes with the subject or if I should keep looking.

Any advice or comments, on how you choose music for your shorts or scenes or features and how you find it, is greatly appreciated.

 

[Michael Allen]

It is an interesting debate but I think the best way for the director to communicate to the composer the music they want varies according to the director. Some feel more comfortable with temp music, others like to just talk style and others there are others that simply want to talk about story and emotion. I've worked with directors who have very specific musical ideas and others who have completely let me off the lead to do what I think best. These are two completely methods that are only good if they give the director the end result they want. Yes it is a collaboration but the director is the big cheese and its up to the composer to bend to his or her needs.

 

[AudioPostExpert]

Filmmaking is a visual medium, first and foremost. I don't say that to discount the extreme importance of music (or audio, in general). But just remember why people are watching. Music, though incredibly important, is one of the last things you do.

I agree that many filmmakers believe filmmaking is first and foremost a visual medium and that many also consider music as "one of the last things you do". This false belief is the Achilles heel of so many filmmakers, it leads to so many rejected films and to so many boring and uninvolving films, all the complaints so often levelled at indy films. Even the good silent filmmakers of 100 years ago didn't believe or practice this! And the top filmmakers today would hold their heads in their hands to hear such a thing.

You've mentioned your admiration for Spielberg, he certainly does not practice or believe what you have said. With Spielberg audio is the joint major player, starting at the screenplay and deeply and continuously involved throughout all the phases of filmmaking. For example, the latest point at which John Williams starts working with Spielberg is during pre-production, same with the sound designer. This attitude and approach (that sound is equally important) is not just true of Spielberg but of Kubrik, Coppola, Scorsese, Cameron, Hitchcock, Leone, Tarkovsky, Ford and in fact virtually every single great director you could mention. In fact, this attitude and approach is one of the major reasons, if not the most major reason why they are legendary directors, rather than just virtually unknown "also rans"!!!

Film is not primarily a visual medium, it's not even a visual with audio medium, it a medium where audio and visuals are inextricably intertwined to create something greater than the sum of it's parts. All the best filmmakers know this and work towards it from the instant they are involved in the project to the instant they deliver it.

It is an interesting debate but I think the best way for the director to communicate to the composer the music they want varies according to the director. Some feel more comfortable with temp music, others like to just talk style and others there are others that simply want to talk about story and emotion. I've worked with directors who have very specific musical ideas and others who have completely let me off the lead to do what I think best. These are two completely methods that are only good if they give the director the end result they want. Yes it is a collaboration but the director is the big cheese and its up to the composer to bend to his or her needs.

I completely agree this is what happens in practice, which is a shame. Ultimately it shouldn't be the end result the director wants but the end result which best aids the narrative, many directors don't appreciate this and can't separate their personal musical tastes from what is most appropriate for the target audience. I believe that it's the director's job to create the conditions which best facilitates the composer's ability to create the best score possible but in practice directors quite rarely do this, instead they usually try to corral their composer into their own little sheep pen.

G

 

[JoshL]

Once again, I find myself half agreeing with a lot of this, but half disagreeing too. I have a healthy ego: I think I'm pretty awesome. I agree that the composer should know a hell of a lot more about music as it relates to film than the director does (and I think I do). I know more about music in general; it's what I do. And I love running free on a score, making it entirely to my tastes and for what I think suits the film best.

However, the director's job is to direct. No, they shouldn't know the details of how the music is created, but they SHOULD know the overall big-picture feel they're trying to achieve. The director doesn't need to know as much as the DP or the actors, but he needs to know enough to guide them into achieving what he wants. That's what a director does. I feel that should carry over into music and sound design as well...we all agree they're pretty damn important!

The egotistical musician in me says, yes, the director should create the best environment for a composer to create the best music they can. However, the collaborative artist (which is what film should be) thinks the director should guide the overall feel towards what they want. There are thousands of ways music can accentuate a scene, and any good cue should draw upon dozens of emotions. I might think playing off the tension for the first part of the scene, then drawing on the humor for the second half is the way to go, but the director might feel that the other way around fits the overall vision of the film, yanno?

Either way, I believe the key to good film music is communication. I think aspiring directors should learn about how music is used, so they can direct. The same way they should learn about acting, even if they never intend to do it. Trial and error with prerecorded music is a place to start seeing that, in a hands on sense. And I do agree with the statement about separating personal musical tastes...but that goes for both the director and the composer. As a film composer you have to sometimes be able to write music that you don't like, and you have to understand it well enough to be able to do a good job!

Good discussions, and lots of good different perspectives! There is no one right way to do things!

 

[AudioPostExpert]

I might think playing off the tension for the first part of the scene, then drawing on the humor for the second half is the way to go, but the director might feel that the other way around fits the overall vision of the film, yanno?

Yes, I didn't mean to imply the director should just give the script and locked-off edit to a composer and tell him/her to go away and do whatever they want. The example you gave above is a bit extreme. I would generally expect a composer to be highly skilled in understanding from the script and the editing how and why particular scenes exist and have a pretty good idea of what the director will want. So *usually* I would not expect a good composer to have interpreted a scene so oppositely to the director. It is of course ultimately the Director's choice, as you say, the Director has to direct! But a good director should encourage new ideas and differing opinions, be willing to discuss them and be open and objective enough to allow true collaboration.

G

 

[Alcove Audio]

I didn't mean to imply the director should just give the script and locked-off edit to a composer and tell him/her to go away and do whatever they want.

In some ways this is exactly what should be done - after the composer and director have spent several hours discussing the story/plot, the characters, the moods, etc. The key is complete communication before the composer begins his/her work.

The biggest problem many indie types have when it comes to score is they fall in love with their temp music. This seriously inhibits the composer, who may have some very different concepts/ideas the that will greatly improve the project that were not thought of by the director.

It is also important, most especially if there are action scenes of any type, that the composer and supervising sound editor collaborate extensively. The sound team will want the sound effects to take precedence, the composer will want the score to be out front. When they work together the combination of sound FX and music can have more impact than either on its own - and saves the rerecording mixer a lot of headaches. There is nothing worse than trying to bring out the running footsteps of the protagonist when the score is percussion heavy.

I ascribe to the Randy Thom and Walter Murch theory of sound and mixing; the audience can only "concentrate" on two and a half sounds at a time, otherwise it becomes just a wash of noise.

 

[JGBarnes]

AudioPostExpert, I don't disagree with your points, in fact, I'm 100% with you. I think, however, I've corresponded too simply.

My perspective is a little skewed, I'll admit, because I score all my own stuff and do sound design, all of which I juggle throughout post-production. That's probably unconventional, I actually wouldn't know otherwise, but my suggestions were based on assisting someone who is not skilled in sound or music, albeit too vaguely stated, I think, and perhaps my points were misunderstood.

In fact, I inject temp music in my own stuff as I cut in order to gauge mood and timing. It does wonders for inspiring the cut when you don't have finished original music or sound design. Now, it certainly takes a level of confidence and maturity as a film maker to not let yourself become married to your temp choices and allow a composer (or yourself, in my case) to freely explore the best possible choice in music, regardless of temp score. It is a very nice cushion to have for amateurs or even pros when you're first starting your cut so long as you understand fully that it is just temporary. I can't stress enough how much it has helped to quicken the editing process and inspire tone.

Sound and music, though this is starting to evolve into a different discussion, should indeed be treated with equal importance as the visuals. This can certainly be the downfall of many amateur films. I've seen it happen. It's not that I even agree, AudioPostExpert, it is a cold hard fact of film making that, sadly, many film makers ignore the importance of the sonic experience.

 

[conac.pccc]

I think, a good movie, must be investment meticulous about sound and image. it must have a modern film technology, studio-quality, high resolution camera so if you want to choose the films have good music quality, you should choose to view the films have DTS sound quality, DTS, Dolby Digital, True HD, HD master ...

 

[MetalRenard]

Wow, AudioPostExpert I think we actually agree on something...!

As a composer I can tell you that the biggest mojo-killer EVER is someone saying to me "this is the music I want, do something like it". It just makes me feel worthless and I end up saying "Hey, if you want that, just use it, don't ask me to lower my standards to copying someone else". So yes I totally agree with the idea that having music edited in before hand is a big "NO!" though I agree that giving a piece as a reference -Outside the actual footage-, ie, saying "at X seconds, I like that for this scene, could you incorporate such an idea into your work please?" is absolutely fine.

 

[Neil Grubb]

My experience of music may be a little different to that of most here, but I commissioned a composer / pianist to work with me on music for a wildlife documentary last year. This was my third documentary, but the first in which music was specifically produced for the film (the first used stock music, and the second copyrighted music with permissions).

What I learned is that time needs to be spent between the director and composer. Interestingly, and perhaps because of the genre, I did not involve the composer in pre-production as I was not certain of what footage would be obtained or what shape the film was ultimately going to take. But I drafted a rough edit and took it to the composer; with the iPad in place on the piano we spent quite a lot of time discussing the moods I wanted to convey in different sections of the film. The composer first of all wrote a theme / melody, around which music for the different sections of the documentary were adapted. The final product was a combination of adjusting music, narration and footage together; sometimes the music would have to be lengthened or shortened to a segment of footage; at other times footage shortened to time with the music.

My next documentary will involve a similar process; the difference is that we have discussed music themes in pre-production and know already which themes will work with the planned segments of this film. It's a very exciting and creative process.

 

[Frederic Michot]

Hello. If you want your project having a strong personality and would be noticed by people, you have to reach the perfect match between music, sound effects and the picture. Using generic music will not reach this goal, by definition: GENERIC is the opposite. Original Music will make a big difference in the result of your project. If you would like, please contact me by email, tell me about your project, there is no charge for that and no charge even for an original music score if the project is interesting. federicmichot@yahoo.com