How do I make a scene like this work?

[harmonica44]

In the first act of my thriller, I need to introduce the hero's love interest. I was thinking of doing it in a scene like this with no dialogue:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rihTkG3CPbI

My friend who is helping me write the script, says that a scene like that will come as random though. Having dialog scenes that move the plot forward, and then all of a sudden cutting to a scene with no dialogue that introduces a love interest, only to cut to another dialogue and plot driven scene without her in, will just feel out of place. But how did the movie Bullitt do it like in that clip? What did they do so well that made that scene work, and not random feeling? Is it just not enough of an introduction by today's standards?

 

[true auteur]

Don't worry about it so much. It can work. The music was very important here as well as the cinematography, which neither of those things have to do with the writing. Write the scene. Make it simple. Know how you're gonna shoot it and know how it's going to look when it's on the screen, and move on. It will work. It won't be weird like your friend says. Especially if you have other moments throughout the movie that lingers without dialogue.

 

[harmonica44]

Okay then. Since the scene has dialogue in, but their will be no sound and music over top, should I write it as: "They converse back and forth, happily", or something like that, or should I write specific dialogue, so that way, the actors will know what to say, but when it comes to time for post production, I will just have no sound, and music over top?

 

[Dom D]

I'd write it with dialogue. Your actors will just feel more comfortable if they have a page to recite rather than having to make stuff up on the spot while a crew stands around watching. And who knows, maybe you'll have some lip readers in the audience.

That scene works pretty well I'd say and it's all down to tone. It's a great room, swinging jazz and it's very carefully planned. I love the long lens most of it's shot with. Awesome introduction for McQueen walking into the room. If you can visualise it shot for shot and think you can make it work do it. If it's just a concept in your head that you'd like to shoot a dialogueless scene and hope it works on the day then put in some serious time trying to visualise it because it's a delicate thing to pull off well..

 

[Firm1]

In the first act of my thriller, I need to introduce the hero's love interest. I was thinking of doing it in a scene like this with no dialogue:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rihTkG3CPbI

My friend who is helping me write the script, says that a scene like that will come as random though. Having dialog scenes that move the plot forward, and then all of a sudden cutting to a scene with no dialogue that introduces a love interest, only to cut to another dialogue and plot driven scene without her in, will just feel out of place. But how did the movie Bullitt do it like in that clip? What did they do so well that made that scene work, and not random feeling? Is it just not enough of an introduction by today's standards?

You need to answer some questions, before you can figure out how to shoot it. What is the purpose of the woman? Should we know a lot about her or very little? How do you show what you're trying to tell?

If the love interest is only important to the extent of showing that the main character is in a healthy relationship, then go ahead and introduce it like that movie but at the end, show them in bed or doing something intimate and then have very short and to the point dialogue.

 

[Marshall_Tyler]

It could be something you refer back to. The two characters meet each other in a loud place, let's say a night club, and then see each other again somewhere else and mention the fact that they saw each other at the night club.

 

[AudioPostExpert]

Since the scene has dialogue in, but their will be no sound and music over top, should I write it as: "They converse back and forth, happily", or something like that, or should I write specific dialogue, so that way, the actors will know what to say, but when it comes to time for post production, I will just have no sound, and music over top?

I don't understand, you give an example of a scene from Bullitt of how you want your scene to work but then when you describe your scene (quoted) it is completely different? The Bullitt scene does not have "no sound", does not just have music over the top and does not have dialogue between the main characters which you can't hear!

While the photography and visual editing of the scene creates interest due to the lighting and some unusual POVs, it is NOT what drives the scene! What drives the scene is the clever and well planned use of music and sound. Largely the cinematography is supporting the music, NOT the other way around! Even in a 45 year old film the director was thinking well beyond cinematography or dialogue to tell the story.

The music in this scene from Bullitt is not just over the top! It is mixed with background sound (bar walla) and established an number of times with various POVs of the band specifically so that the music is not just incidental but is an essential audio requirement of the scene. This makes the music "real" rather than abstract and adds to it's power/importance. What drives the scene is the huge change in the pace and feel of the music which is emphasised to the max by synchronising it with the visual cut from McQueen to the Bisset CU. This dramatic over emphasised change in the music completely changes the audience's perception of where the scene is going, of bisset's importance to the scene, of who she is, of why she's in the scene and of the potential romantic/sexual connection with McQueen.

No way was any of this random, neither is it down to the type of lens you use or how you have previously established the characters in the script! You've got to start thinking of the sound and music as more than just something to support the cinematography, ALL the good films and filmmakers moved beyond that approach to film making well over 60 years ago! If you want to progress as a filmmaker you've got to start analysing, looking (and listening!) with better eyes (and ears!) to examples of the great films. Did you read The Principles of Sound Design thread?

G

 

[harmonica44]

No it doesn't look like I read that one, but I will. Thanks.

My scene does not take place in a night club though, I am writing it so that it takes place in a plaza, and music will be playing over top. I can also add some crowd sounds from the plaza, if that works.

This scene is the last scene of the first act pretty much, and after that the love interest does not reappear till about half way through the second act. It's a suspense thriller and tragedy occurs, which she is apart of and their relationship is heavily effected by it. But I was told by my friend I should give her a scene to introduce her in the first act, then when she reappears the audience will immediately know who she is, instead of having to figure it out later, in the moment of suspense when she comes in.

I don't want to give her another scene where she and the main character are in bed though. I want to get on with the second act, and get on with the action and twists, so I thought I'd just give her a scene at the end of the first act, just enough to establish her as needed. I don't think the audience needs any further scenes to get the point, that she is the love interest, unless I am wrong?

 

[AudioPostExpert]

You asked how they made that scene work so well in Bullitt. They made it work by establishing an ordinary bar scene and then halfway through creating a huge contrast with music to completely change the character of the scene and how the audience interpret it. If they had done it just with incidental music ("music over the top"), it may still have worked but wouldn't have worked nearly so well.

Just adding some crowd sounds in your plaza scene and putting music over the top may work, it just probably won't work very well. You can justifiably have music in the scene which is not incidental as plazas tend to have piped music but it is more difficult to support this non-incidental music visually, will require some very convincing mixing and processing of the music to make it sound part of the scene rather than incidental and it would be very difficult to justify a huge change in the pace and feel of the music, as piped music is specifically designed to be relaxing and all sound the same. I'm not saying it's impossible to achieve a similar effect as with the Bullitt scene but set in a plaza, but it will require considerable planning and ingenuity as well as some skilful audio post.

G

 

[harmonica44]

Okay thanks. But... I really don't want to use pipe music if I can help it.

 

[Joe Citizen]

My friend who is helping me write the script, says that a scene like that will come as random though. Having dialog scenes that move the plot forward, and then all of a sudden cutting to a scene with no dialogue that introduces a love interest, only to cut to another dialogue and plot driven scene without her in, will just feel out of place. But how did the movie Bullitt do it like in that clip? What did they do so well that made that scene work, and not random feeling? Is it just not enough of an introduction by today's standards?

You could totally make that work. But I think you need to make it work for you, not against you. Like, use the difference to shift the mood, or suggest your theme, that kind of thing. For example, your guy goes home to his SO. We see him go through the usual home type motions, kiss his wife, sit down for breakfast, whatever it is you want to show. But WHY is there no dialog? Maybe we want to detach the audience from this part of his life; no dialog, no meaning to this part of his life. Or maybe the opposite, it's his oasis away from the travails of life; it needs no dialog because he doesn't need the dialog - it's about him just being there with his family, "silent lucidity" and stuff, lol.

Think of it as an interlude.

Usually scenes like this are used to show a couple growing apart, but I say, have fun with it. Use the disconnect to your advantage.

Okay then. Since the scene has dialogue in, but their will be no sound and music over top, should I write it as: "They converse back and forth, happily", or something like that, or should I write specific dialogue, so that way, the actors will know what to say, but when it comes to time for post production, I will just have no sound, and music over top?

Hmm, a scene with dialog, but no sound. That's different. A lot harder to pull off. There needs to be some important action being conveyed to carry a scene like that, I think. Or a reason that won't be too subtle for the majority of the audience, something the lack of sound is trying to convey (drowning man, man fighting a coma, man on heavy drugs, man's life flashing before his eyes, something). Or really interesting camera work.

Music sure wouldn't hurt, either.

 

[Alcove Audio]

Okay then. Since the scene has dialogue in, but their will be no sound and music

Unless it is specifically meant as a disturbing dream/memory having no sound whatsoever except the dialog will immediately pull the audience right out of the film. There is ALWAYS sound in the real world unless you are in an anechoic chamber - and even then, once you've been in there for a few minutes, you can hear your own heartbeat and your nerves working and become extremely aware of your clothing rustling, etc.

Now, if you want it really quiet to heighten the intimacy, that's an entirely different thing. Some subtle room tone and very quiet Foley will do the trick.