HD or DV?

A

alejandra

Hello everyone,

At the moment I'm in the stage of pre-production for my next film. Just to make things clear, I'm a student, and this is my major ultimate project before I graduate. Although my real wish would have been to use film, our budget is simply too limited. So now I've been able to get hold of a panasonic HVX200 DVCPRO HD/SD. To make it look more like film we are going to use a 35mm lens adaptor. It looks great. BUT I'm debating whether we should actually shoot in HD. The thing is, at first I didn't want to, because I was told that even if you shoot and edit in HD, once you put it onto a DVD disc, the quality becomes the same as a normal standard movie shoot in DV. But now aparently, I've discovered that this is not the case with my camera, because the camera will compress it more profesionally, and even if you put it into a DVD disc, you will STILL see a difference in quality and it will look great. I was told that since I have the camera that can encourage the look, I may aswell take advantage of its full potential.

I'm a little worried, not sure what to do now. My story is very visual, and it needs to look good!But another problem is that the entire shoot resides in a forest (ext), so this may cause complications. So I'm not sure whether I should stick with DV or go for HD?

Suggestions/Feedback very welcome.

Alejandra xox :)
 
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Hi

definitely shoot and edit in HD if you can. The result will look a lot better, as you have more information before you start to compress and you will end up with better quality.

cheers
 
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alejandra said:
Hello everyone,

At the moment I'm in the stage of pre-production for my next film. Just to make things clear, I'm a student, and this is my major ultimate project before I graduate. Although my real wish would have been to use film, our budget is simply too limited. So now I've been able to get hold of a panasonic HVX200 DVCPRO HD/SD. To make it look more like film we are going to use a 35mm lens adaptor. It looks great. BUT I'm debating whether we should actually shoot in HD. The thing is, at first I didn't want to, because I was told that even if you shoot and edit in HD, once you put it onto a DVD disc, the quality becomes the same as a normal standard movie shoot in DV. But now aparently, I've discovered that this is not the case with my camera, because the camera will compress it more profesionally, and even if you put it into a DVD disc, you will STILL see a difference in quality and it will look great. I was told that since I have the camera that can encourage the look, I may aswell take advantage of its full potential.

I'm a little worried, not sure what to do now. My story is very visual, and it needs to look good!But another problem is that the entire shoot resides in a forest (ext), so this may cause complications. So I'm not sure whether I should stick with DV or go for HD?

Suggestions/Feedback very welcome.

Alejandra xox :)
Click to expand...

I think what they meant was that you will be able to view it in SD format (standard format). You will still be able to watch it on a tv or in a movie theater even if it isn't stocked with HD equipment. It doesn't mean that after it is shot and put on DVD that the picture deteriorates back to standard. If that were so, there would be no point in shooting in HD. And we all know that HD is the direction the industry is going now...

-- spinner :cool:
 
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You also want to shoot in HD because anything you do to promote it on the web will be higher quality as most monitors support a higher resolution than the standard DVD rez. Remember when you burn it to a single or dual layer DVD, its going to be 720 x 480. Also, you may have the opportunity to burn it to HD eventually and won't you be glad you have it in HD. Now the question you have to ask yourself is do you shoot it at 60i, 24p, 24f?

Tony
 
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HD seems to be a given, esp. if you have P2 cards (which you would need to shoot HD). DV encodes at 19mb/s (not counting audio), and P2 encodes at around 100mb/s. Even though there is 6 times more pixels with only 5 times the data, in SD any artifact will be 1/6th the size it would on SD. Bottom line more information for a frame is always a good thing.

Plus, I mean come on your shooting a feature! what happens if two years down the line bluray burners get cheap, HD is prevelent and you only have an SD master. Also festival showings have HD projectors, and today its cheap to get an HD playback system (IE apple TV).

Why do all the work of putting together a feature and not shoot HD, esp when the camera in question is capable!

I think the harder problem you'll have is pulling focus. Make sure to get a good 1st AC and follow focus rig, shooting a 35mm frame is difficult to keep focus, and since you loose about a stop or two on an already slow camera, you'll end up on the wide end of the appeture, making focus all the more difficult.

Oh and if I can throw my 2c into gurus question....shoot 24fps (no 24f mode in the HVX200) with the shutter at 1/48 (1/24 if you ABSOLUTELY need the additional stop) 60i won't look like theatrical feature. But thats my opinion. You can shoot on that cam anywhere from 1-60fps.
 
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alejandra said:
Hello everyone,

At the moment I'm in the stage of pre-production for my next film. Just to make things clear, I'm a student, and this is my major ultimate project before I graduate. Although my real wish would have been to use film, our budget is simply too limited. So now I've been able to get hold of a panasonic HVX200 DVCPRO HD/SD. To make it look more like film we are going to use a 35mm lens adaptor. It looks great. BUT I'm debating whether we should actually shoot in HD. The thing is, at first I didn't want to, because I was told that even if you shoot and edit in HD, once you put it onto a DVD disc, the quality becomes the same as a normal standard movie shoot in DV. But now aparently, I've discovered that this is not the case with my camera, because the camera will compress it more profesionally, and even if you put it into a DVD disc, you will STILL see a difference in quality and it will look great. I was told that since I have the camera that can encourage the look, I may aswell take advantage of its full potential.

I'm a little worried, not sure what to do now. My story is very visual, and it needs to look good!But another problem is that the entire shoot resides in a forest (ext), so this may cause complications. So I'm not sure whether I should stick with DV or go for HD?

Suggestions/Feedback very welcome.

Alejandra xox :)
Click to expand...
Stay with HD it's better quality and holds up much better.I own one of these cameras and have shot 2 shorts with it so far. I have throughly tested it and find shooting 1080p at 25 fps to be the smoothest and less compressed of all the settings.
If you do not have much P2 cards the next quality down is 720 PN .
 
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I'd definitely shoot in HD. I'm not sure you'll necessarily get better SD results down-sampling the HD footage in post as opposed to shooting in SD with your HD camera and letting the camera do the down-sampling but the difference is probably negligible and you might very well decide you want to put it on Blu-ray someday once the burners/players get cheap. You can also use the HD stuff on the web too.
 
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Shoot in HD. If you can edit in HD, but at the very least find a way (external hard drives) to save all of your raw HD footage. Then you can always make Standard Def proxy files to edit with if need be, and when and if the time comes you can replace the standard def files in your NLE with the full HD and render out a full HD quality version.

If your computer can handle editing in HD then that is your best bet. Maintain the best quality image you can for as much of the process as possible, that means less compression for as long as you can manage it. ;)

HD footage down rezed to standard definition still has a clarity that shooting in standard definition does not, so it's definitely the way to go given the choice... otherwise I would say "use what you've got"
 
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If I shoot in HD with my xh-a1. Dont I need to burn it to an HD DVD and view it on a blu ray, on an HD TV? Thats why I have always been shooting in SD with my xh-a1. Because I fear that I wont be able to even view my project.
 
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MelonDome said:
If I shoot in HD with my xh-a1. Dont I need to burn it to an HD DVD and view it on a blu ray, on an HD TV? Thats why I have always been shooting in SD with my xh-a1. Because I fear that I wont be able to even view my project.
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No, you could render it as standard definition footage after you finish your edit. Also there are ways to burn a standard blank DVD as an HD DVD
 
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There's an old adage for dealing with anything you'll be manipulating digitally...GIGO (Garbage In, Garbage Out). Shoot HD. For the difference afterwards, see my Heinz commercial, shot on an A1 and delivered on youtube, it looks much better than the already good stuff I shot with my XL1s.
 
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Another reason to shoot HD, not only for the better image quality, is that if you want to get into the business, then that is most likely what format you will be working with in the future. It will look good on a resume and will give you experience with a format that the pros use. If I see a resume filled with DV shorts and a DV feature or two or a resume with HD shorts, then the resumes with HD will go to the top of the stack.

Finally, HD isn't going to make bad lighting, bad composition, lackluster acting and lousy editing look better so pay attention to what goes in front of the camera too.

Take care,

Scott
 
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Here's a question I have just encountered: just how good are the consumer grade HD cameras at this time?

I am reasonably sure that my camera will outperform it, but I was still wondering how good are the Best Buy versions becoming...?

-- spinner :cool:
 
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spinner said:
I am reasonably sure that my camera will outperform it, but I was still wondering how good are the Best Buy versions becoming...?
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It would depend on the camera, there's a wide range of quality out there... Though the AVCHD codec that hard disc recording cameras utilize has the capability to provide better quality than an HDV camera, the bitrate that's currently employed with that codec sacrifices any increased image quality that could potentially be there.

My little HV20 can be used with a blackmagic intensity card to allow me to capture full 1920x1080 uncompressed HD footage, I don't believe there are any other cameras in that range that will allow that, nor any that will allow that AND 24p. ;)
 
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Good is relative to how it is used. If you need easy access to a focusing ring, you need XLR inputs, you need to use filters or a matte box, or you want total control over exposure and white balance without going through several menus, then the SD Pro and Prosumer cameras are still better, in my opinion. However, some people only care about pixel counts, and for those people the HD consumer cam is probably better. There is also a wide range of quality in lenses.

Doug

p.s. The new technologies really are making inroads. I have a small consumer camera, but I'd never even consider using it on a professional shoot. I simply wouldn't have the control, or audio options that I need.
 
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oakstreetphotovideo said:
p.s. The new technologies really are making inroads. I have a small consumer camera, but I'd never even consider using it on a professional shoot. I simply wouldn't have the control, or audio options that I need.
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That's what I was thinking. So many people want HD. It just seems -- to me at least -- that unless you shoot on consumer cameras, HD is too expensive. At least it would be for me at this time. And since I am trying to market my skills, I kind of feel I still need to have an answer to "is your camera HD?"

A guy I was talking to was telling me how he got this new HD camera. 'Okay, great! Sure, show it to me," He got it from Circuit City or Best Buy, basic handicam size, but HD. Personally, I want a camera I can white balance and have some control over focus, gain, iris and audio. But if all anyone is looking for is HD, I 'ain't' got it... :rolleyes:

-- spinner :cool:
 
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If you can write a business justification for a $3500 camera, you can have a good, prosumer, HDV camcorder that shoots "HD" and gives you the controls you have on you Panasonic. If you can't justify $3500, the demand simply isn't high enough. As the demand increases, the costs generally come down. Eventually the justification will be there.

I bought my Canon XH-A1 for the progressive frame mode, as much as for high definition. I have a Panasonic DVC-80 which is just like a DVX-100 and I love it, except it doesn't support progressive capture. With the shooting I do, it took the Canon 6 months to pay for itself. The Panasonic had paid for itself a few times over. I would have purchased a DVX-100, and I must say I came very close, because the batteries, lens attachments, etc. are the same as my DVC-80, but I felt the demand was growing for HD and I probably shouldn't spend another $3000 on an SD camera.

If your customers are asking for HD, tell them to show you the money. I always shoot in 1080i, now, but I'm delivering my commercial work in SD. If they ever ask me to deliver in HD, I'm going to charge them more because it takes more resources to edit and deliver in HD, including a BluRay DVD burner, at least.

I guess my point is that you must approach it like a business. If your customers will pay more for HD, then figure out if you can pay off the camera in 1 year with reasonable income estimates. If you can, buy it. If not, then tell your customers that want HD you can do it for a premium price, and rent a camera. If they won't pay, then they don't want it that bad!

My next point is that people who are looking to have commercial video work done aren't hiring a camera, they're hiring a person. They want that person's experience, style, talent, skill, etc. Although you need a camera that gives you control, the camera is just a tool that will produce great results in skilled hands, and you-know-what in the hands of a novice.

I know I'm rambling, but you are right not to buy a consumer camera just to say you can do HD. The results would probably not meet your expectations. Now I suppose I'm going to get roasted by all the people shooting with consumer cameras that they love, but before anyone wastes a lot of time telling me about the feature film they shot on their HV20, when I walk into an office building with my XH-A1, mic stands, Davis Sanford tripod, shotgun microphones, lights, etc., I get asked for my business card. You can use whatever works for you to shoot your next Oscar-winning B-movie. I must look professional, if you get my drift.
 
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oakstreetphotovideo said:
If you can write a business justification for a $3500 camera, you can have a good, prosumer, HDV camcorder that shoots "HD" and gives you the controls you have on you Panasonic. If you can't justify $3500, the demand simply isn't high enough. As the demand increases, the costs generally come down. Eventually the justification will be there.

I bought my Canon XH-A1 for the progressive frame mode, as much as for high definition. I have a Panasonic DVC-80 which is just like a DVX-100 and I love it, except it doesn't support progressive capture. With the shooting I do, it took the Canon 6 months to pay for itself. The Panasonic had paid for itself a few times over. I would have purchased a DVX-100, and I must say I came very close, because the batteries, lens attachments, etc. are the same as my DVC-80, but I felt the demand was growing for HD and I probably shouldn't spend another $3000 on an SD camera.
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The only person who would get the 'business justification' would be me, as I am chief cook and bottle washer. There is no point in convincing me about HD, I know that is where the industry is going. I simply cannot spend $3500 on a camera when I am still paying off the one I have.

If your customers are asking for HD, tell them to show you the money. I always shoot in 1080i, now, but I'm delivering my commercial work in SD. If they ever ask me to deliver in HD, I'm going to charge them more because it takes more resources to edit and deliver in HD, including a BluRay DVD burner, at least.

I guess my point is that you must approach it like a business. If your customers will pay more for HD, then figure out if you can pay off the camera in 1 year with reasonable income estimates. If you can, buy it. If not, then tell your customers that want HD you can do it for a premium price, and rent a camera. If they won't pay, then they don't want it that bad!
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I approach everything like a business. The people I need to approach like a business feel that HD is the end all be all and I can understand their interest. It also seems that all you have to say is that you don't shoot in HD and the conversation almost stops. Most laypeople just figure with TV going HD, everything video/visual has to be HD. By the way I just recently gave rates for my services and got the "Oh, well, thanks anyway". But just earlier I also was approached by someone who had no problem with my rates. I guess it will ebb and flow, but I hope it will flow alittle more if I am lucky.

My next point is that people who are looking to have commercial video work done aren't hiring a camera, they're hiring a person. They want that person's experience, style, talent, skill, etc. Although you need a camera that gives you control, the camera is just a tool that will produce great results in skilled hands, and you-know-what in the hands of a novice.

I know I'm rambling, but you are right not to buy a consumer camera just to say you can do HD. The results would probably not meet your expectations. Now I suppose I'm going to get roasted by all the people shooting with consumer cameras that they love, but before anyone wastes a lot of time telling me about the feature film they shot on their HV20, when I walk into an office building with my XH-A1, mic stands, Davis Sanford tripod, shotgun microphones, lights, etc., I get asked for my business card. You can use whatever works for you to shoot your next Oscar-winning B-movie. I must look professional, if you get my drift.
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This is the argument I make. I don't want to sound cocky, but I think I am offering alot for the rates I'm quoting. And what I am offering, along with all the professional stuff, is something they can use to represent them in a much more professional manner than what they have.

-- spinner :cool:
 
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