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Got a lighting problem.

H

harmonica44

I am shooting a short film, and have a problem with shooting a chase scene at night. I have two lenses, the kit lense, and a new 1.4. Now the problem with the 1.4 is that it looses focus really easily and if I'm doing a chase or action scene, where I'm moving the camera with the actors, then it sucks.

The other lens is much better but is horrible for night lighting. I can get enough light to make it bright, but the problem is, is that the actors faces are way too bright. If I bring the light down, then there is a lot of red grain on the actors clothes. The actors are wearing black and I've noticed that the 18-55 lens is bad for black, cause of grain.

Take the movie Terminator 2 for example. In the night scenes, the Terminator was dressed in all black. But you could see everything he was wearing and could tell that his jacket was undone. In my scenes, with the 18-55, all you can see is black, and can't even see what they are wearing, just that it's black with grain. If I light it bright enough to see the black clothes, then it's way too bright for their faces.

The only way I know how to fix the grain is with the 1.4 but then I got focus problems. With my previous shots, I shot with both lenses, and have to choose which takes look better. The grainy on black takes look better than the out of focus, half the time, takes. But I would like to shoot the rest of this film without having to choose the lesser of two evils. Is there a different way of lighting, or different type of lens I could use for this problem? Thanks.
 
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PaulGriffith said:
Just cause the lens has a max aperture of f/1.4 doesn't mean you have to run it at that. It can probably go to f/22 or something. Anything between 1.4 and 3.5 is faster than your kit lens.

24mm makes a difference because it's wider. As we said before, wider=deeper DOF.

And the focus problems you're having are due to the shallow DOF. Wide open on some lenses, I've had one eye in focus and the other out. You're also picking a few of our suggestions and asking how that works? If it doesn't work, do a different one.

Night shoots are HARD. There are a lot of factors and you need a lot of light. For your first few shoots, night is a bad idea.

We've talked about in the past biting off more than you can chew man. Tou're doing it here apparently.

You're first short should be 60-90 seconds, a little bit of dialogue, one or two actors. Practice technique. Baby steps. Short two, add another 60 seconds.

You oughtta look into a beginners photography class too. I've seen people (myself included) explain aperture, ISO, focal length, DOF etc over and over but reading about it doesn't seem to be taking. You need a hands on teacher, or at the least hands on experience.
Click to expand...

+163, and I say that as a perpetual student myself. H44, you've got to do the work, brother. You can't learn to cut hair online.
 
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OP I'm a newbie like you and I also have all kinds of ideas for elaborate action scenes but I know they are not practical to shoot on a micro-budget without looking extremely bad.

Therefore I am writing my first short based only on engaging story and characters and keeping the technical aspect as easy as possible to cut my teeth. Just my 2 cents.
 
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re "So the 1.4 doesn't loose focus easily..."

Yes, at lower f/stops DOF is shallower. The upshot is that it's easy for the subject to move forward or back, even a little, and move out of focus. It's up to you to maintain focus (that's what a 1st AC does). But if you stop down a bit - to a f/2.0 - the depth of field will be greater (as you saw from that link I sent you to), and maybe you'll still have enough exposure.

There are formulas, websites and iPhone apps for this.

There is only ONE plane of focus for the camera. Say you're focused at ten feet. At 10'1" a subject is out of focus. Period. But there's a space in front of and behind that plane where focus is acceptable. That's the depth of field. If you keep the subject inside that space then they are 'in focus'. The lens doesn't lose focus - you do.

Basically, though, you've set a huge problem for yourself trying to shoot at night without proper support. Assuming you can't shoot in the day as I suggested - edge the hell out of your talent and let the fill go. The audience doesn't need to see everything, but they do need to see enough to let them fill in the details. If a light is in your shot (i.e. if you have to get a light close in order to get decent exposure) then reframe the shot, hide the light behind a garbage can, something, but get good exposure on what IS lit.

Here's a frame from something I shot. I have no light on the guy in the foreground, and the woman's only light is at a pretty edgy angle. No fill at all that I recall. ISO 500, probably at f/2, exposed for her face He reads because he's silhouetted against her, and it doesn't matter that we can't see his skin tone or the jacket well - the audience sees enough to form a picture and in this kind of mysterious thing it's better that we don't see too much.

Eleanor_800px.jpg
 
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Hey that's a pretty good shot. Well I will do as many takes as I can in the time alotted, and pick the one where they stay within those 10 inches the best. I have just tried another test shoot with some different lights I bought. These lights are brighter but still not quite enough. I will have to use the 1.4 and see how much I can get away with, without having to go so far down. But it will have to be lower than 2.5 for sure.
 
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The easy way out is accepting noise in your nightfootage.
As long the noise is consistant (not increasing or decreasing per shot) in 1 scene it may be acceptable (although it may look not really good; you can continue your short and show your storyteller-skills).
And maybe the noise can be decreased a little with Magic Bullet De-noiser or something similar.
Overexposing faces is worse than noise on clothing.

Or accept a lot of the action will be out of focus, but I think you'll need more experience to plan and choose what needs to be sharp and what can be out of focus.

Terminator 2 was lit with more lights than your can get hold off. That makes it hard to compete. ;)

Day-for-night could be an option, but with if it's a setting with electric lights it will look more fake than usual, because the lights don't shine.
Watch 'A fistfull of dollars' to see a classic day for night example (and how it was cut with real night shots, lol).

Shooting during magic hour is really difficult, because you have about 1 hour, maybe 1,5 per day to shoot.

Good luck and don't get scared!
 
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harmonica44 said:
..and pick the one where they stay within those 10 inches the best.
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I'm not sure where the 10" number came from. If from my post, I was just giving a notional example, and the 10 was feet, not inches. The actual depth of field can be calculated on that web page I mentioned earlier. You need to know your lens size, the aperture, the sensor size (APS-C I think) and the distance you're focused at.

To give an example (and I'm using that dofmaster.com page, without checking it)

Canon Rebel T2i, 28mm lens, f/2, focused at 12 feet: the DOF is a little over 4.3 feet (from 10.2' to 14.6'), with 1.8ft of that in front of the subject and 2.56 behind the subject.

For a 50mm lens (all else the same), the DOF is 1.3', from 11.4 to 12.7.

For a 100mm lens (all else the same), the DOF is just 0.3'

You need to have a calculator, or take the time to observe your focus on an external monitor - the little LCD on the back of the camera is not a good way to judge it, but, if you have to, magnify and check and, as you say, do multiple takes and hope one is right.
 
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WalterB said:
The easy way out is accepting noise in your nightfootage.
As long the noise is consistant (not increasing or decreasing per shot) in 1 scene it may be acceptable (although it may look not really good; you can continue your short and show your storyteller-skills).
And maybe the noise can be decreased a little with Magic Bullet De-noiser or something similar.
Overexposing faces is worse than noise on clothing.

Or accept a lot of the action will be out of focus, but I think you'll need more experience to plan and choose what needs to be sharp and what can be out of focus.

Terminator 2 was lit with more lights than your can get hold off. That makes it hard to compete. ;)

Day-for-night could be an option, but with if it's a setting with electric lights it will look more fake than usual, because the lights don't shine.
Watch 'A fistfull of dollars' to see a classic day for night example (and how it was cut with real night shots, lol).

Shooting during magic hour is really difficult, because you have about 1 hour, maybe 1,5 per day to shoot.

Good luck and don't get scared!
Click to expand...

Just so long as the people watching it can accept the noise. I can accept it if they can. I went to the location last night and did some test shots. I think in order to make the background more clear, and out of a shallow DoP, then I will have to use the kit lense, and perhaps up the ISO over 1600. I will do some shots with it over, and do some with the other lens, with the ISO at 800. But most chase scenes are not done with a huge shallow DOP, so I'm going a noisier ISO might be the solution. I'll do both, then see.

ngoforth said:
I'm not sure where the 10" number came from. If from my post, I was just giving a notional example, and the 10 was feet, not inches. The actual depth of field can be calculated on that web page I mentioned earlier. You need to know your lens size, the aperture, the sensor size (APS-C I think) and the distance you're focused at.

To give an example (and I'm using that dofmaster.com page, without checking it)

Canon Rebel T2i, 28mm lens, f/2, focused at 12 feet: the DOF is a little over 4.3 feet (from 10.2' to 14.6'), with 1.8ft of that in front of the subject and 2.56 behind the subject.

For a 50mm lens (all else the same), the DOF is 1.3', from 11.4 to 12.7.

For a 100mm lens (all else the same), the DOF is just 0.3'

You need to have a calculator, or take the time to observe your focus on an external monitor - the little LCD on the back of the camera is not a good way to judge it, but, if you have to, magnify and check and, as you say, do multiple takes and hope one is right.
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I know you meant 10 feet, but there is a 10 inch change in DOP I was referring too. Like when the actors step into a certain 10 inch range, is when the DOP changes it seems, at least in some shots I saw it that way.

I wasn't able to get a 24 1/4 lens in time, and will have to make do with my kit lens, and 50mm 1.4. I'll try both. Yeah I've been trying to get an external monitor for this thing. But my Canon T2i needs a certain type of plug in for that. The store does not sell HDMI cords that with the type of plug in for that camera specifically. Unless it's the type of cord, where you view the footage after it's shot, which I have. But they have no cord for doing it live. I'm going to check one more store, but after this I start shooting. Should I go over 800 ISO if it means having less shallow DOP for a chase?
 
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harmonica44 said:
I think in order to make the background more clear, and out of a shallow DoP, then I will have to use the kit lense, and perhaps up the ISO over 1600. I will do some shots with it over, and do some with the other lens, with the ISO at 800. But most chase scenes are not done with a huge shallow DOP, so I'm going a noisier ISO might be the solution. I'll do both, then see.
Click to expand...

1. DOF... DoP is a Director of Photography

2. Again, try running the 50mm at f/2 and at f/2.8. Just because it can do 1.4 doesn't mean it HAS to. It will increase the DOF and still let in way more light than your kit lens at 3.5. IF that's still not shallow enough, run your kit lens all the way wide at 17 or 18mm. If you zoom in, it increases the F Stop, making it even darker. Plus, if you zoom in, you're getting closer to 50 and should be using the prime anyway.
 
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Yep thanks. My bad, I meant DOF. It's hard to tell the DOF on the little camera screen. I finally got an HDMI cord that can fit into my camera, so I can monitor how it looks through the laptop. Only problem is, it won't work. My friend is the one shooting and she has a better eye for DOF than I do, so I'll get her to see which aperture is best, and try to stay within those ones. I'll try to figure out how to get this cord to work as well. Mainly when you plug it in, nothing pops up on the laptop, for a live feed.
 
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