Frame Rate Help Needed

[Joe Lovelock]

Hello!

I'm about to start on a documentary out in Mexico and I'm preparing the editing set up/work flow and I'm a bit confused about shooting footage at different frame rates. Due to the nature of the project the film is likely to be shown in Mexico, America and Europe. Of course Mexico and the US use a different frame rate to Europe so I was wondering what would be the best format to shoot on to allow the film to converted so it can be shown in all the countries we hope to show it in.

I was always told that if you needed to, convert 30 to 25 and not the other way round. Is this correct? Also, there a chance that the film maybe be shot in different frames rates, if worst comes to worse we will have to shoot on our own personal cameras, i.e. both Pal and NTSC. I imagine this will make editing the footage a real nightmare. If this did happen is there a workflow that would suit this type of set up. I'll be editing on final cut. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.


Thanks!!

 

[2001 Productions]

From a technical standpoint, it's not so much a matter of the "frame rate" you choose -- the video will always play back at the proper frame rate for the video standard, whether NTSC or PAL, no matter how it was shot.

Is HD(V) an option? I'd go that route, personally (at whatever frame rate you prefer). If you're using Final Cut Studio you'll have access to Compressor, which can change it to whatever standard and/or frame rate you like.

If you must choose NTSC or PAL to shoot in, PAL is a little higher quality, but most PAL DVD players will also play back NTSC discs, whereas most NTSC players won't play PAL discs.

 

[Joe Lovelock]

Thanks 2001

I'm hoping to get us shooting on HD (fingers crossed). So can compressor convert 25 frame footage to 30 will out any image degradation and vise-vera. If so you think the frame rate shouldn't be a problem, even if we shoot footage at both 25 and 30fps?

Thanks again

 

[wheatgrinder]

Shooting frame rate should be determined by the subject matter.
High action you should shoot high frame rate etc.

Your final delivery method will determine what frame rate your OUTPUT will have. Any loss of information is a degradation in quality. With higher frame rate video rendered to lower, your basically throwing away frames.. the image will look good, but wont look as SMOOTH in the motion..

 

[2001 Productions]

So can compressor convert 25 frame footage to 30 will out any image degradation and vise-vera.

One of us is a little unclear about what the other is saying...it might be me.

For the moment, forget about the frame rate and decide whether you're shooting NTSC or PAL or HD. The answer may be different, depending on which one you shoot.

NTSC and HD have 3 standard frame rates: 60i, 30p and 24p (there are others, but those are the ones you'll find on most cameras). No matter which one of those rates you choose, NTSC always plays back at 60i; no conversion is necessary. HD handles all three as well in their native rate. You choose one based on the look you want to achieve. As WG said, 60i is the smoothest, 24p simulates a film look.

PAL is a different animal altogether. It shoots 50 fields, or 25 frames per second. Whereas NTSC has 525 scanning lines, PAL has 625 -- slightly better. But it requires PAL equipment in order to play it back -- standard in Europe but rare in North America.

As I said before, highest quality is gotten from HD -- whatever the frame rate. You can convert it to NTSC for North America or PAL for the rest of the world without losing quality.

If so you think the frame rate shouldn't be a problem, even if we shoot footage at both 25 and 30fps?

This implies you're shooting both PAL and NTSC. If that's really what you mean, then yes, Final Cut allows you to convert them so that they may be cut together. If you can avoid mixing standards, though, I think you'll be a lot happier.

 

[Kyo]

If you are going to do online, and than you don't need to worry about frame rate or resolution. With Quantel, you can import any format (different frame rate, field, resolution etc.) and than you output HD, SD or any others. It does very good job at all, even it you scale up your final output.

Assembly/conform
With iQ the editor can work with rushes, temps, offline and finals, all on the same multilayer timeline – a massive benefit of Quantel’s unique Resolution Co-existence™. Offlines can be quickly and accurately conformed with iQ’s multilayer timeline. As the job comes together iQ’s comprehensive toolset allows finessing and complex changes to be made without the delays and management headaches of going back to other systems.

 

[wheatgrinder]

Kyo,
I was about to ask what the Quantel was.. then I goolged it..

Yikes that big iron!

 

[Joe Lovelock]

Thanks for all the advice. Its been a real help!

 

[Cinesound]

Shoot the entire project at one frame rate. At least that way, it's an "all or nothing" situation when you convert it at the end for release.

My best suggestion would be to shoot it all at 23.98 HD, then at the end keep it at this rate (or convert to 29.97 SD) for NTSC countries, and then to 25fps for PAL countries. I strongly suggest that you avoid shooting at different rates during production.