Final Cut audio questions and iTunes.

[Sweeney Jet]

Hey, all. Days from wrapping my film, I wanna plan out my Plan B besides sending off to film festivals. Distribber is very interesting to me and I'd like my film to be on iTunes. But I don't understand this HD audio requirement:

Audio: Must have 8 channels of audio

5.1 – L, R, C, LFE, Ls, Rs / PCM Little Endian / Each audio channel needs to be its own track
Ch. 7 stereo left, Ch. 8 stereo right / PCM Little Endian / Each audio channel needs to be its own track

I use Final Cut Pro and this audio speak is like a foreign language to me. What does it want me to do! Lol. If someone can break it down for me, that'd be awesome. Thanks!

This is the film I'm trying to make "happen." Is the audio not up to par?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cUom-SuEd0k

 

[Alcove Audio]

They want two mixes, a 5.1 surround mix and a stereo mix; at least that is what I can get from the very limited information given. The problem is that Little Endian is usually a lower resolution and so cannot really exist side-by-side with the 24/48 5.1 mix.

 

[AudioPostExpert]

I use Final Cut Pro and this audio speak is like a foreign language to me. What does it want me to do! Lol. If someone can break it down for me, that'd be awesome. Thanks!

Is the audio not up to par?

As Alcove said, according to the basic requirements, you will need a 5.1 surround sound mix as well as a stereo mix. So you will need a surround sound system for starters. To be honest, if you've got to create a 5.1 mix you will really need to hand over the audio to a professional. If you don't have the budget for a professional you will need to persuade them to accept just a stereo mix or drop the idea of putting it on iTunes. According to what you've posted though you "must have" a 5.1 surround mix.

The specification you have posted does not define quality requirements, just the format requirements. IMHO though, I'm afraid the stereo mix is not up to par. I think it would probably be rejected by most, if not all reputable festivals. There are some basic technical faults (editing clicks for example) as well as cutting in and out ambiances, places where there is no sound (which needs them) and quite a few other audio weaknesses. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but I can't imagine any distributor would be willing to take your film on without you spending some fairly serious money on professional audio post.

The problem is that Little Endian is usually a lower resolution and so cannot really exist side-by-side with the 24/48 5.1 mix.

Little Endian or Big Endian does not affect resolution, it just defines the byte order of the PCM datastream. With Little Endian, the PCM bitstream runs from LSB (least significant bit) to the MSB (most significant bit) and the other way around for Big Endian. Little Endian is probably the most common format but any modern computer can read either format. Old computers are often limited to only Little Endian PCM streams though.

G

 

[Alcove Audio]

Little Endian or Big Endian does not affect resolution, it just defines the byte order of the PCM datastream.

True. I'm just saying that from my experience with the contracts I've fulfilled, that the Little Endian calls have been for lower resolution, the Big Endian for higher resolution for exactly the reasons you stated. It's been a very long time since I've had to deal with either.

I'm afraid the stereo mix is not up to par. I think it would probably be rejected by most, if not all reputable festivals.

Most festivals here in the US readily accept stereo mixes. Distributors, however, are another story... Plus, some don't really care how good the audio post is, but the most definitely want to say the audio is 5.1 surround.

 

[knightly]

So, It looks like they want the tracks structured this way for compatibility with the most possible systems:
1- L
2- R
3- center
4- sub
5- L (rear)
6- R (rear)
7- L
8- R

So you could easily leave the bits of the mix you have no content for empty... if you only have a stereo mix:

1,7- L
2,8- R
3,4,5,6 - empty (although I'd strongly recommend setting all your dialog into the center channel on track 3 at the very least)

This should provide a "compliant" audio model if not a "correct/ideal" one. You won't hit the subwoofer in the theaters, nor the rear L/R speakers (although, you could add your L/R channels to 5,6 - but it'll most likely sound weird in the theaters)

 

[AudioPostExpert]

Most festivals here in the US readily accept stereo mixes.

Yes, most festivals in Europe also accept stereo mixes although the bigger ones definitely prefer 5.1. I wasn't talking about stereo mixes in general, just this particular one. Obviously it varies from festival to festival, same with distributors, but I think particularly the editing clicks would cause most to reject the film.

G

 

[Sweeney Jet]

So, It looks like they want the tracks structured this way for compatibility with the most possible systems:
1- L
2- R
3- center
4- sub
5- L (rear)
6- R (rear)
7- L
8- R

So you could easily leave the bits of the mix you have no content for empty... if you only have a stereo mix:

1,7- L
2,8- R
3,4,5,6 - empty (although I'd strongly recommend setting all your dialog into the center channel on track 3 at the very least)

This should provide a "compliant" audio model if not a "correct/ideal" one. You won't hit the subwoofer in the theaters, nor the rear L/R speakers (although, you could add your L/R channels to 5,6 - but it'll most likely sound weird in the theaters)

Thank you to everyone for their knowledgeable responses.

Is there any... visual tutorial you could link me to...?

 

[knightly]

Nope... keep in mind, my solution is the barest possible solution (the pro audio guys are curled up under their desks right now in the fetal position). It's basically stereo played back on a 5.1 system with no fancy anything at all. It's not a 5.1 mix, just formatting the output to fit their intake requirement from your straight 2 channel project.

 

[AudioPostExpert]

Nope... keep in mind, my solution is the barest possible solution (the pro audio guys are curled up under their desks right now in the fetal position). It's basically stereo played back on a 5.1 system with no fancy anything at all. It's not a 5.1 mix, just formatting the output to fit their intake requirement from your straight 2 channel project.

Uncurling from my fetal position for a minute , I'm not sure your solution would work in practice because the specifications specifically states "Must have 8 channels of audio", whereas your solution is of course really 2 channels of audio copied across 4 channels. You might get away with it but I would definitely check first. I've never dealt with iTunes but audio post specifications for other companies and broadcasters have, in my experience, to be followed to the letter.

G

 

[knightly]

My thought for the spec is that the conversions are automated and audio is pulled from specific channels to populate their mix without human interaction.

 

[AudioPostExpert]

My thought for the spec is that the conversions are automated and audio is pulled from specific channels to populate their mix without human interaction.

That's possible but I just don't know what iTunes QC entails. It's possible they operate like a TV station and someone would need to check the audio for quality and for appropriate content or it could be a completely automated process, provided Apple cannot be held legally responsible for what they distribute/broadcast (unlike traditional broadcasters). Sweeney really needs to check with iTunes, if I were doing the audio post, that's the first thing I would do.

G

 

[Sweeney Jet]

That's possible but I just don't know what iTunes QC entails. It's possible they operate like a TV station and someone would need to check the audio for quality and for appropriate content or it could be a completely automated process, provided Apple cannot be held legally responsible for what they distribute/broadcast (unlike traditional broadcasters). Sweeney really needs to check with iTunes, if I were doing the audio post, that's the first thing I would do.

G

Haha. "Sweeney."

Anyway, I'll check with them and see what they say.

Nope... keep in mind, my solution is the barest possible solution (the pro audio guys are curled up under their desks right now in the fetal position). It's basically stereo played back on a 5.1 system with no fancy anything at all. It's not a 5.1 mix, just formatting the output to fit their intake requirement from your straight 2 channel project.

Sounds good, but -- thing is, I'd like a break down of where I physically do this in Final Cut. When you said this:

1,7- L
2,8- R
3,4,5,6


I'm totally at a loss. Yes, I am not a seasoned editor. Lol. Are you talking about the number of the audio tracks in Final Cut? Like, I purposely create a track 7 and then pan the audio all the way to the LEFT vice versa for track 1?

And the vice versa for 2 and 8, but pan it to the RIGHT instead? Track 3,4,5, and 6 I just leave alone. ....

No?


Lol. Definitely a visual learner, bro.

 

[Alcove Audio]

The simplest "5.1" mix you can do is to put everything except the score in the center speaker; the score goes left and right. The rest stay empty. The rear speakers are not often used for simple comedy and drama films. The LFE (sub) is for special effects.

 

[knightly]

Yes is the simple answer for your question.

 

[Sweeney Jet]

The simplest "5.1" mix you can do is to put everything except the score in the center speaker; the score goes left and right. The rest stay empty. The rear speakers are not often used for simple comedy and drama films. The LFE (sub) is for special effects.

That kinda makes sense, but I think the real issue is I edit the film while wearing headphones. I don't use speakers. A no-no?

 

[Alcove Audio]

That kinda makes sense, but I think the real issue is I edit the film while wearing headphones.
I don't use speakers. A no-no?

For editing you can get away with it, but mixing with headphones is a huge no-no.
Here's a huge no-no for you.

NO-NO!!!​

You should always be mixing in a venue similar to where your audience will be
experiencing the project. So, ideally, you should mixing on a dubbing stage.

Barring that, at least a reasonably well isolated and treated room
and some decent speakers.

 

[Sweeney Jet]

For editing you can get away with it, but mixing with headphones is a huge no-no.
Here's a huge no-no for you.

NO-NO!!!​

You should always be mixing in a venue similar to where your audience will be
experiencing the project. So, ideally, you should mixing on a dubbing stage.

Barring that, at least a reasonably well isolated and treated room
and some decent speakers.

Nice set-up. How much would it cost to have a set up like that? And how much would it cost to hire someone instead to do the mix?

 

[AudioPostExpert]

Nice set-up. How much would it cost to have a set up like that?

For that setup, probably around $1m, depending on the acoustic design, monitoring system, channel capabilities, etc. For the bottom setup, probably a little under $10K. Just about OK for some simple editing work but you couldn't mix a film on it.

And how much would it cost to hire someone instead to do the mix?

Top setup, about $2.5k - $5k a day and they usually do an AB reel in one or two days, depending on the project. As you go cheaper, you get less experience and less adequate equipment/facilities.

For the bottom setup, for simple stereo editing, probably anything from zero to three or four hundred per day depending on the experience of the operator.

Then you've got the facilities (like mine) which are considerably cheaper than the big dubbing theatres but considerably better than the cheap bottom setup: