DSLR audio questions (Juicedlink, AGC)

[Steve_in_MD]

I have a question about recording audio to the t3i. I searched the forums here but couldn't find a specific answer for my situation.

So, I just purchased a t3i, Rode Videomic Pro and boom pole a few weeks ago, as an upgrade from my previous gear. I understood going into the purchase that it's difficult to get good sound from a DSLR. The VMP is a good mic but any 1/8 inch mic is going to give some hissing/static interference. I'm trying to get the best sound possible and I have no way of hiring a sound guy, so I'm figuring everything out on my own. I have a Zoom H1 that I can record sound to, which I understand is preferable, instead of recording audio straight to the t3i. However, because I'm booming with a 10 ft cable, I understand I'll probably get some interference.

Would purchasing a JuicedLink mixer/preamp be beneficial in this situation? Here are two that I've found on Amazon.

CX211 (http://www.amazon.com/JuicedLink-Adapter-Connects-Microphones-Cameras/dp/B003E3JY34/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1338002606&sr=8-1

DS214 (http://www.amazon.com/JuicedLink-Minijack-Camcorder-Preamplifier-Disable/dp/B004VG27IC/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1338002606&sr=8-4

From what I understand, the JuicedLink is able to remove the automatic gain control, and help with the hissing from the T3i. If I were to purchase one of these, which is the better choice for my setup? Price is only $55 more for the CX211 ($189 compared to $144).

Also, if I ran the mic through the JuicedLink, would I still want to record to the Zoom H1, or would that be unnecessary, seeing that the main reason to record to the H1 would be to eliminate the hiss from the AGC? And would having the JuicedLink help with eliminating some of the interference from the 10 ft extension cable for the mic? I think I read somewhere on here that having the JuicedLink makes the connection balanced or something, which helps with the interference.

Forgive me if this is a newb question, I'm just trying to get the absolute best sound possible with my current gear, as I understand sound is so much more important than many people make it out to be.

Thanks a lot.

 

[Steve_in_MD]

Here is a link with an example of what I'm going for.

http://cheesycam.com/canon-t3i-juicedlink-ds214-rode-videomic/

Any input from you experienced audio guys would be appreciated.

 

[Alcove Audio]

DSLR cameras should be treated as if they were film cameras - you use a separate audio recording system. Visually and verbally slate every take and keep complete detailed audio and video logs. You can sync very easily with the camera audio, a luxury not available when using a film camera. PluralEyes and similar softwares can partially automate the process.

The H1 and RVM will do okay until you can afford to upgrade. Once they have better gear many put the RVM on the camera to improve the camera audio quality, which makes syncing easier (waveforms match better for manual syncing, PluralEyes matches more clips).

A separate audio system - when used properly - will almost always be superior to camera audio.

One thing I should note about AGC disablers - they generate a loud constant tone or white noise to one channel so the compressor is always shut down. This tone/noise has been known to spill over to the camera audio track, thus defeating the purpose by introducing lots of noise to the dialog track. One more thing; with the CX211 you don't have any way to monitor the audio.

If you're going to spend $325 get a better recorder or a better mic, or at least get some headphones.

 

[Cracker Funk]

Even if you spend money to remove the AGC from the T3i, you're still recording crappy audio. Get an external recorder.

Thankfully, we've got a small handful of regulars on this website who can make educated recommendations (see above).

 

[Steve_in_MD]

DSLR cameras should be treated as if they were film cameras - you use a separate audio recording system. Visually and verbally slate every take and keep complete detailed audio and video logs. You can sync very easily with the camera audio, a luxury not available when using a film camera. PluralEyes and similar softwares can partially automate the process.

The H1 and RVM will do okay until you can afford to upgrade. Once they have better gear many put the RVM on the camera to improve the camera audio quality, which makes syncing easier (waveforms match better for manual syncing, PluralEyes matches more clips).

A separate audio system - when used properly - will almost always be superior to camera audio.

One thing I should note about AGC disablers - they generate a loud constant tone or white noise to one channel so the compressor is always shut down. This tone/noise has been known to spill over to the camera audio track, thus defeating the purpose by introducing lots of noise to the dialog track. One more thing; with the CX211 you don't have any way to monitor the audio.

If you're going to spend $325 get a better recorder or a better mic, or at least get some headphones.

Thanks a lot for the advice. I do have headphones, by the way, albeit not great ones, but they'll work. I'm not quite sure where the $325 figure came from (the CX211 is $189), but if I am going to spend some more money on audio in the near future, would it be best to get a better recorder like the H4N? I didn't even think about the white noise being an issue, so I probably won't be getting the JuicedLink now. I also don't plan on getting a better mic at this point because it would have to be XLR (you can't get much better than an RVM Pro for a 1/8 inch mic) and the Zoom H1 doesn't have an XLR input. So, presumably I'll be recording separately with the RVM to the H1 and syncing in post.

I'm still wondering about the extension cable issue, though. Will using an external recorder like the H1 help at all with eliminating any interference from a 10 ft mini jack extension cable? I've heard the JuicedLink will help with that, but I'm not sure if that's worth another $189.

Thanks so much for the help.

 

[Alcove Audio]

Combining the DS214 and the CX211 lets you use XLR mics with a DSLR while suppressing AGC - shows you how my thought process goes. (It's actually why the DS214 was developed in the first place, so folks with juicedLink products for camcorders could adapt them to DSLRs...) That's how I came up with $325.

I'm still wondering about the extension cable issue, though. Will using an external recorder like the H1 help at all with eliminating any interference from a 10 ft mini jack extension cable?

The point is that the person swinging the boom will also have the recorder with them; then the cable is only the length of the boom-pole - max 15' for most people, which is the length of the boom-pole, plus a few from the end of the boom-pole to the recorder in the pocket of the boom-op.

Your choice otherwise is to get crappy audio because the mic is mounted on the camera, or to get crappy audio because the long extension is picking up all sorts of RF interference.

I do have headphones, by the way, albeit not great ones, but they'll work.

Headphones should be of decent quality, otherwise you are not really hearing what is actually being recorded.

 

[Steve_in_MD]

Combining the DS214 and the CX211 lets you use XLR mics with a DSLR while suppressing AGC - shows you how my thought process goes. (It's actually why the DS214 was developed in the first place, so folks with juicedLink products for camcorders could adapt them to DSLRs...) That's how I came up with $325.



The point is that the person swinging the boom will also have the recorder with them; then the cable is only the length of the boom-pole - max 15' for most people, which is the length of the boom-pole, plus a few from the end of the boom-pole to the recorder in the pocket of the boom-op.

Your choice otherwise is to get crappy audio because the mic is mounted on the camera, or to get crappy audio because the long extension is picking up all sorts of RF interference.



Headphones should be of decent quality, otherwise you are not really hearing what is actually being recorded.

Oh okay, that makes sense.

My headphones are $25 Sennheiser 201. http://www.amazon.com/Sennheiser-HD201-Lightweight-Over-Ear-Headphones/dp/B0007XJSQC Probably not great but they came free with my VMP so it's the best I can do right now.

I definitely won't be mounting the VMP on camera. The concern with the extension cable is the RF interference, so I'm hoping that if I can use a short enough cable and have the boom op holding the recorder, I can limit interference as much as possible.

The boom pole only extends to 7 feet long (I got the boom made by Rode for the VMP for $50). I have a 10 foot extension cable; is this going to pick up too much interference, or would it be better to get like a 6 foot cable and only extend the boom that far?

Thanks again so much, your input has been incredibly helpful.

 

[AudioPostExpert]

I have a 10 foot extension cable; is this going to pick up too much interference, or would it be better to get like a 6 foot cable and only extend the boom that far?

You should be OK with 10ft but it's impossible to say for sure. It depends on the output level of the mic and the level of ambient RF and EM interference. In theory the longest you should run an unbalanced cable is 15ft although with a strong signal and low interference you can go upto 25ft. Compare that to a balanced cable (XLR) though and you'll see why it is by far the preferred method. Balanced cable (at line level) has in theory a maximum cable run of 7 miles (!), so at mic level a hundred or more feet should be fine.

G