editing Does H.264 REALLY come apart in post?

superamazing

superamazing

All across the internet, I've heard that H.264 is not a resilient codec, and "comes apart in post." However, I have doubts about that.

I acknowledge that H.264 is a pain to edit, because it's slow. The intraframe compression means your computer has to look around for the relevant information.

But the information is still there. For this reason, I simply do not understand how color grading or some similar process would cause the image to "come apart."

Are there any examples of this? I want to see a test, where some H.264 footage is put through a grueling regime of color grading and effects, compared to that same footage converted to an intermediate codec and put through the same exact process. I suspect the output would look exactly the same.
 
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Another thing is that some editors allow you to only encode the parts of the clips that have been changed/altered and the rest is not re-encoded when saved into the final file.

So if you have 5 clips and piece them together, it could just re-encode a few short pieces where they join together.

This is good since if you decode and then re-encode it can mean some loss in the quality of the video. Also it saves time since the editor only needs to encode a small percentage of the actual video, as it simply copies the stream from the input files to the output for most the video.
 
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brianluce said:
Yeah, how about that? Can you deliver something to YT that's in their native format? That they won't tire iron?
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Hey, man. No need to be snarky. If you have an issue with me, feel free to message me and hopefully we can work it out.

When I stated that YouTube prefers it, I was going by Adobe's widescreen HD preset for YouTube - which I don't believe was a decision that was made arbitrarily, especially since FLV is currently being developed and pimped by Adobe. How about that?

Peace.
 
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rayw said:
This is why I'm wondering if the compressed file can be uncompressed as a larger AVI format, monkey with... I mean edited, then re-compressed back into H.264/MP4 or other.

I don't know how to designate the 8 vs 10bit output for delivery, but I'll figure out something.
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That's exactly the process most people use - capture as h.264, convert to prores, cineform, etc - monkey about - then back to h.264 for the final delivery.

In most cases the 8 vs 10bit will be dictated by the format you edit with, so by converting to a 10bit format your NLE will work in the higher bit rate. You'll always end up delivering in 8 bit, but the goal is to eliminate multiple re-encoding passes through 8 bit space during things like color correction.
 
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ItDonnedOnMe said:
1 - That's exactly the process most people use - capture as h.264, convert to prores, cineform, etc - monkey about - then back to h.264 for the final delivery.

2 - In most cases the 8 vs 10bit will be dictated by the format you edit with, so by converting to a 10bit format your NLE will work in the higher bit rate. You'll always end up delivering in 8 bit, but the goal is to eliminate multiple re-encoding passes through 8 bit space during things like color correction.
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1 - Cool. Thank you for confirming this part of the process.
Could I go onto suppose that it's outright ill advised to edit in H.264? Edit in anything, just not in H.264?

2 - 8 bit delivery is unavoidable? And color correction is only a 8 bit process? Can't designate 10 vs 8?
 
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No, in most decent post software you can do everything in 10 bit or higher precision - editing, color correction, vfx, graphics/titles, etc. I wouldn't say 'edit in anything, just not h.264' because there are a lot of codecs out there that don't hold up well to multiple generations - HDV for instance. So edit in a format that is designed to hold up well through multiple generations in post - Cineform, ProRes, DNxHD, etc.

For delivery I believe 8 bit is unavoidable - there just aren't many 10 bit codecs designed for consumer use, and without that it's not likely your general audience would be able to watch. But the final output to 8 bit isn't such a big deal - what you are really trying to avoid in post is multiple generations of manipulation in an 8 bit space.
 
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CamVader said:
Hey, man. No need to be snarky. If you have an issue with me, feel free to message me and hopefully we can work it out.

When I stated that YouTube prefers it, I was going by Adobe's widescreen HD preset for YouTube - which I don't believe was a decision that was made arbitrarily, especially since FLV is currently being developed and pimped by Adobe. How about that?

Peace.
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I'm not trying to be snarky, I apologize if it came across that way, I actually like the tire iron analogy.

I'm just wondering if there's any format you can hand YT that they won't touch because it's already the way they like it.

I always play a guessing game with YT and Vimeo, mainly because I'm too lazy to read their upload recommendations.
 
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brianluce said:
I'm not trying to be snarky, I apologize if it came across that way, I actually like the tire iron analogy.

I'm just wondering if there's any format you can hand YT that they won't touch because it's already the way they like it.

I always play a guessing game with YT and Vimeo, mainly because I'm too lazy to read their upload recommendations.
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It looks like that guy had a hair across his ass that day. :blush:

My main complaint isn't really picture anymore, it's sync.
 
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superamazing said:
Yes! I looked this up yesterday. Do you know if they mess with the video at all if you upload it in this format?
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They mess with everything. :)

Seriously, it works fine. YouTube and Vimeo like smaller file sizes because it ties up their system less. I don't bother with any other codec for them because it's a preset in Premiere and it's just easier. Just FYI, H.264 is also the BluRay preset, but with different settings.
 
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superamazing said:
Yes! I looked this up yesterday. Do you know if they mess with the video at all if you upload it in this format?
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If you follow the specs from their site, you'll see that when it is "encoding", it takes a substantially smaller amount of time because they aren't doing as much to your video. As opposed to when you add a higher bit rate or do other similar such things, the processing takes longer to encode as you upload.
 
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