Does anyone else run into this lighting problem (noise in dark areas)

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Hey all,

this is driving me crazy. I have a Canon 60D and if I light I scene, say a hallway for example, but the camera is slid from behind a wall to reveal that scene and I want that wall dark then I'm stuck with awful noise, or grain not sure which. I'm having trouble figuring out how to keep the exposure even when you are doing something like this. The only way I know I could fix it is by lighting the wall but I don't want the wall vibrant, I want it dark if that makes sense. Also I'm noticing even when my exposure is almost perfect, maybe one tick mark towards the under exposed side, that darks have a lot of noise, even on ISO 160 and a wide open prime lens at 1.8. Maybe I'm just being too picky, I don't know, but it really bothers me and can't figure out how to get it better. The denoise program in PD13 (my software I use) seems to "try" to fix the problem by blurring everything, at least that is what it looks like. How much noise should there be in dark areas when the exposure seems almost right on the money? Thanks for any help/guidance.

EDIT: Also I should say, that I want a "darker" scene and I'm not sure how to achieve this. I mean if I can't go below the perfect exposure line then how do you get a nice dark scene without a bunch of noise? I've turned the exposure down in post but that creates a lot of weird stuff too if I go too far

 

[WhiteOpus]

Hey all,

this is driving me crazy. I have a Canon 60D and if I light I scene, say a hallway for example, but the camera is slid from behind a wall to reveal that scene and I want that wall dark then I'm stuck with awful noise, or grain not sure which. I'm having trouble figuring out how to keep the exposure even when you are doing something like this. The only way I know I could fix it is by lighting the wall but I don't want the wall vibrant, I want it dark if that makes sense. Also I'm noticing even when my exposure is almost perfect, maybe one tick mark towards the under exposed side, that darks have a lot of noise, even on ISO 160 and a wide open prime lens at 1.8. Maybe I'm just being too picky, I don't know, but it really bothers me and can't figure out how to get it better. The denoise program in PD13 (my software I use) seems to "try" to fix the problem by blurring everything, at least that is what it looks like. How much noise should there be in dark areas when the exposure seems almost right on the money? Thanks for any help/guidance.

EDIT: Also I should say, that I want a "darker" scene and I'm not sure how to achieve this. I mean if I can't go below the perfect exposure line then how do you get a nice dark scene without a bunch of noise? I've turned the exposure down in post but that creates a lot of weird stuff too if I go too far

Not sure if I can answer your noise question with accuracy, do you have a screenshot of the noise next to your properly exposed area? If you're using a slider to do a wipe with the black of the wall, you could always just keyframe a dark rectangle to move with the dark spot in the wall...not sure how this would look (whether it would match the natural grain of all digital cameras), but it's worth a try. A screenshot of the noise would help to determine whether it's normal and you're being picky, or if there really is an issue.

 

[wheatgrinder]

tell me about it! Man that stuff just sucks. You think you have a well lit scene, the subject is just right, the details you want lit are just right, but you want some nice darkness here and there.. an boom.. freakin noise.. It kills me every time!

The reality is that the noise is in the entire image, its just the image signal is louder in the bright spots.. its the old SNR thing..

Even at the lowest ISO setting it just seems to happen. You need to find the setting on your camera that produces the least of it..

try this. With LENS CAP ON. shoot 10 seconds of all the lower ISO's (you know the higher ones are already noisy)

Take that footage to your editor, bring up the brightness to where you see grey. Play it back..now which ISO has the least amount of noise? You'll probably be surprised, its NOT the lowest setting.

Also play with the other settings, like automatic dynamic range increase etc.. (different for different cameras but you get the idea)

And finally check the film profiles... some are nosier than others..

If you save off each of the 10 second clips and name them so you can find them later, you can use these as noise profiles for neat video, which really is the best denoise program, and not very expensive.


for post fixes, with a fixed shot, you can mask out the noise area and do a freeze frame for that area.. cause its not really the noise, its the way it moves on the screen that drives me nuts.. also using similar techniques you can denoise only the parts of the image that need it.. that will keep your detail on the subject etc.. If you have AE use some trackmats to pull out just the dark areas and apply denoise to that area only..

 

[WhiteOpus]

tell me about it! Man that stuff just sucks. You think you have a well lit scene, the subject is just right, the details you want lit are just right, but you want some nice darkness here and there.. an boom.. freakin noise.. It kills me every time!

The reality is that the noise is in the entire image, its just the image signal is louder in the bright spots.. its the old SNR thing..

Even at the lowest ISO setting it just seems to happen. You need to find the setting on your camera that produces the least of it..

try this. With LENS CAP ON. shoot 10 seconds of all the lower ISO's (you know the higher ones are already noisy)

Take that footage to your editor, bring up the brightness to where you see grey. Play it back..now which ISO has the least amount of noise? You'll probably be surprised, its NOT the lowest setting.

Also play with the other settings, like automatic dynamic range increase etc.. (different for different cameras but you get the idea)

And finally check the film profiles... some are nosier than others..

If you save off each of the 10 second clips and name them so you can find them later, you can use these as noise profiles for neat video, which really is the best denoise program, and not very expensive.


for post fixes, with a fixed shot, you can mask out the noise area and do a freeze frame for that area.. cause its not really the noise, its the way it moves on the screen that drives me nuts.. also using similar techniques you can denoise only the parts of the image that need it.. that will keep your detail on the subject etc.. If you have AE use some trackmats to pull out just the dark areas and apply denoise to that area only..

yes.

 

[Auto_Doc]

Not sure if I can answer your noise question with accuracy, do you have a screenshot of the noise next to your properly exposed area? If you're using a slider to do a wipe with the black of the wall, you could always just keyframe a dark rectangle to move with the dark spot in the wall...not sure how this would look (whether it would match the natural grain of all digital cameras), but it's worth a try. A screenshot of the noise would help to determine whether it's normal and you're being picky, or if there really is an issue.

I made a video of it, problem is YouTube's compression or whatever makes it even worse so not sure how accurate this will be but here is the link:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=657EKicJrtA

tell me about it! Man that stuff just sucks. You think you have a well lit scene, the subject is just right, the details you want lit are just right, but you want some nice darkness here and there.. an boom.. freakin noise.. It kills me every time!

The reality is that the noise is in the entire image, its just the image signal is louder in the bright spots.. its the old SNR thing..

Even at the lowest ISO setting it just seems to happen. You need to find the setting on your camera that produces the least of it..

try this. With LENS CAP ON. shoot 10 seconds of all the lower ISO's (you know the higher ones are already noisy)

Take that footage to your editor, bring up the brightness to where you see grey. Play it back..now which ISO has the least amount of noise? You'll probably be surprised, its NOT the lowest setting.

Also play with the other settings, like automatic dynamic range increase etc.. (different for different cameras but you get the idea)

And finally check the film profiles... some are nosier than others..

If you save off each of the 10 second clips and name them so you can find them later, you can use these as noise profiles for neat video, which really is the best denoise program, and not very expensive.


for post fixes, with a fixed shot, you can mask out the noise area and do a freeze frame for that area.. cause its not really the noise, its the way it moves on the screen that drives me nuts.. also using similar techniques you can denoise only the parts of the image that need it.. that will keep your detail on the subject etc.. If you have AE use some trackmats to pull out just the dark areas and apply denoise to that area only..

Thanks for your reply I just want to make sure it is normal for my camera is all. I guess I thought that at low ISO's you didn't have any noise.

Here is a link to a couple of documentaries I've done on this camera since I got it. I was very happy with the quality I guess all of a sudden I've just started really nitpicking and looking at it under a microscope for some reason:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wM7vikSUrBc

https://vimeo.com/110979380

 

[Auto_Doc]

Also I guess I'm trying to figure out, how do you shoot a "dark" scene, I mean if you always have the exposure up at 0 on the scale it will always be perfectly exposed right which will be bright. I guess I thought you were suppose to under expose stuff for a dark scene, like someone sitting alone in a dark room for instances?

 

[jax_rox]

which ISO has the least amount of noise? You'll probably be surprised, its NOT the lowest setting.

This is because the 'in-between' ISO settings are actually the base ISOs (i.e. 100, 200, 400, 800 etc.) with a digital 'push' or 'pull' applied. For example, ISO 125 is ISO100 with a 1/3 digital push, and therefore will look noisier than ISO160 which is ISO200 with a 1/3 digital pull.

A screenshot would be nice so we could see this in action, as well as the camera settings you're using for the shot (i.e. aperture, ISO, shutter, picture profile, graded/pre-graded etc.)

This is where a light meter comes in handy. You need to see where your acceptable noise levels are, and light accordingly within your ratios and where your camera's dynamic range sits. Sometimes that can mean lighting something that you want to be dark to a level that certainly isn't dark, and then pulling it back down in post. That way, your footage is above the noise level.

It's worth noting that dark scenes in movies are rarely actually dark (or at least that dark) on set. It's a combination of exposure and grading that gets them to that point. I've had a Director ask me why a dark scene has so many lights and is relatively bright, until I direct him to look at the monitor, where he realises what I'm actually recording (this is harder to get across when you're shooting film ).