Curious about prosumer camers vs. DSLR's

sleepwalk

sleepwalk

Hey folks, new user here. Hopefully you take kind to those around here!

I just finished my first semester of my filmmaking courses at an art school, and needless to say, I am happy so far. I've been making 'short films' since I was a child on basic VHS and DV tape camcorders, as I'm sure a lot of us have. This past semester, I had the opportunity to work with basic HD consumer camcorders... nothing too high-end or experienced.

However, for the upcoming semesters and next couple years I'll be at the school, I want to start a collection of my own gear to take a long the way and shoot my own films with, as well as student films.

However, I'm kind of at a crossroads, like I'm sure a lot of people are when first looking at new gear or set-ups. Main question: DSLR or prosumer camera? This question probably gets asked a lot, and I'm sure each have their pros and cons. I've done some research, but no matter how much I do, it always results in a debate in my head. I would like to have honest, unbiased opinions from actual working and student filmmakers, like you guys.

In all honesty, I'm leaning towards a prosumer camera. I like having a substantial camera that was built for one purpose, shooting a film. DSLR's have DOF and interchangeable lenses that usually do well in low light, but is that enough to win the argument?

I'm sorry if I'm kind of talking out of my ass here, but I'm just looking for an honest opinion that will help out a fellow filmmaker.

Budget: $900-$1500
 
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Hi sleepwalk, I shoot with both a top-of-the-line small sensor prosumer camcorder (a Panasonic TM900) and several large sensor interchangeable lens cameras (Panasonic GH1, GH2 and GH3).

For narrative filmmaking, I use and recommend the large sensor cameras. This is why:

1. Shallow depth of field/ selective focus. Used by filmmakers to emphasize an object or person in the frame - much more difficult to do with a camcorder.

2. The flexibility provided by interchangeable lenses. Different lenses have different "looks". Classic Nikon or Canon FD glass on my GH cameras is much more 'filmic" than modern glass. This is very subjective, but many people agree.

3. The GH3 has a higher bit rate - up to 72mbps in ALL-I. This is much faster than any consumer camcorder, and will provide more information and higher quality on the screen.

4. Filmmakers are shooting with GH cameras for theatrical release. Here is the trailer for Upstream Color, released theatrically a few weeks ago, and now available on Amazon Instant Video and Blu-RayDVD. This movie was shot on the Panasonic GH2:

http://vimeo.com/57342043

Very few filmmakers (to be honest, none that I know of) are shooting movies on prosumer camcorders.

If I were you, I would get a $1298 Panasonic GH3 body and an inexpensive zoom or prime to get started. This is the best value-for-money camera now available in your price range.

Here is what this camera can do:

Panasonic Official Launch Film - "Genesis": http://vimeo.com/49420579

"Clash": http://vimeo.com/59543338

Hope this is helpful and good luck at film school! Whatever you decide, I envy you the quality of the movies you'll be able to make with these cameras - when I was at film school in the 1970s, we were shooting Super 8 :)

Best,

Bill
 
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I'm also strongly biased towards DSLR (or mirrorless in the case of the GH2)

They've proven their use for filmmakers and I've yet to see any footage from a "prosumer camcorder" that'll make me think otherwise.
 
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Camera doesn't make your film greater, it polishes your turd, great camera work, good audio, great script, brilliant actors.. That's what you really need, you film shit on a red epic, you'll get ultra HD shit, you film a great script on an iPhone, you'll have a great HD film, get my drift?
 
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Get a DSLR and some manual lenses, put the camera on 'M', and shoot as much as you can with it.

Image quality doesn't matter, advanced features don't matter. What really matters at this stage in your career is learning how to select and manipulate the basics to produce exactly the image you want. Focus, aperture, shutter speed, ISO, white balance, and lens selection. If you can master those, you'll be able to make any camera do what you want. DSLRs are made to work that way, most prosumer cameras aren't.
 
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8salacious9 said:
Camera doesn't make your film greater, it polishes your turd, great camera work, good audio, great script, brilliant actors.. That's what you really need, you film shit on a red epic, you'll get ultra HD shit, you film a great script on an iPhone, you'll have a great HD film, get my drift?
Click to expand...

This.

Get a prosumer camera you can shut the auto features off and has input for mikes and you're set to turn that great script into a movie.

Good luck.
 
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I like DSLRs due to portability, depth of field, and great image quality. They have been used in films like Upstream Color, Act of Valor, and The Avengers. But they also have many downsides, like rolling shutter, moire, noise, and shakiness. Prosumer camcorders are great too. They have many features DSLRs do not have. Honestly, I think any camera would work fine. Danny Boyle shot 28 Days Later on the XL-1, a cheap standard def camcorder (which not many people noticed.) Either type of camera will work, but I recommend the T2i, T3i, GH2, GH3, HV30, HV20, and 5D Mark 2. Good luck. I hope you find the camera you're looking for.
 
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Thanks for all the input guys, seems like most of the consensus is for DSLRs. Do a lot of DSLRs have inputs for actual microphones? Because I really want to learn about having good sound and professional audio, and it seems like prosumer camcorders do that better. I've operated DSLRs before, but mostly for photography. I am a passionate avid film photographer, so I know a lot of the manual features a DSLR has (iso, exposure, etc. etc.).

By prosumer camera, I'm talking about camcorders like the XF100, AG-AC90, etc. I'm sure you know that, but just to clarify.
8salacious9 said:
Camera doesn't make your film greater, it polishes your turd, great camera work, good audio, great script, brilliant actors.. That's what you really need, you film shit on a red epic, you'll get ultra HD shit, you film a great script on an iPhone, you'll have a great HD film, get my drift?
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I know, I know. But no features or independent films are going to be released on an iPhone. Just as a painter needs a canvas to paint, and a sculptor needs a good sculpting knife to sculpt, a filmmaker should have a good camera to work with and to motivate him.
 
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XF100_279x186.gif

So pretty much nobody recommends these type of cameras anymore?

Pros of DSLRs:
  • Depth of field is excellent with most lenses (50/1.8-2.8, 35/1.8-2.8, 21mm/f4?)
  • Interchangeable lenses, obviously
  • Higher bit-rate, maybe

What are some pros of the prosumer camcorders, like the one shown above?
 
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sleepwalk said:
Okay, so I've got the GH2 and XF100 on my mind... any other suggestions?
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sleepwalk - the fabulous GH2 has been discontinued and is going to be hard to find and expensive. The new G6 has the same sensor as the GH2 and competes very well against the hacked GH2 (see these videos - please watch at 1080p):


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oahjBtejyAk


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UgDtaJHCeb4



If you want a headphone jack, though (a feature you'll find on every pro camcorder), the GH3 is a better choice. Until the BPCC ships in July, the GH3 remains the only DSL below $2000 with a headphone jack. Personally, I consider headphone monitoring essential and won't buy another camera without it.

As far as the XF100 goes - it is a great doc or broadcast camera, but does not seem very cinematic to me. Here is a student short shot with it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FAmhwwhNQpQ

Again, hope this is helpful,

Bill
 
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Prosumer Camcorder Advantages:
Better audio
More durable
Matte Box type thing
Bigger and heavier (able to do handheld)
Less rolling shutter and moire
More options and features for shooting
Looks more professional
Articulating and larger LCD screen
Zebra Stripes
ND filters
 
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So we're talking about a prosumer camera that is less than $1500

ChimpPhobiaFilms said:
Prosumer Camcorder Advantages:
Better audio - Extremely unlikely at this price
More durable
Matte Box type thing
Bigger and heavier (able to do handheld) - prosumer this price is extremely unlikely to be much bigger than an SLR
Less rolling shutter and moire If it's a CMOS sensor then it won't be a lot different
More options and features for shooting such as....?
Looks more professional If you're talking about the look of the physical camera then no, at $1500 it is not. $3000+ probably if you're getting into the nicer Sony and Panasonic cameras.
Articulating and larger LCD screen Quite a few DSLRs have Articulating screens :)
Zebra Stripes a quick hack will make these work on a DLSR
ND filters true, but I do enjoy my external ND filter
Click to expand...

My opinion is that if your budget is $1500 then a prosumer camcorder is not the way to go. If it were closer to $3000 then you would have some good durable options. But in reality a prosumer camera in the $800-$1500 range isn't any better than SLR IMHO
 
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sleepwalk said:
I see a lot of talk about the Panasonic GH series and now the G series. Does the 5D Mark II still keep up it's reputation, even compared to the G series?
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With the native h.264 compression, the 5D Mark II's picture is moire-prone and soft, compared to the newest Panasonic G and GH cameras:

Here is the 5D Mark II vs the GH3. The GH3 is a little more moire-prone than the GH2 and G6, but the older Canons are have a terrible moire problem (please watch at 1080p):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzO5fXL8iLE

I would only consider a 5D Mk II with the new RAW firmware upgrade from Magic Lantern. But that's a whole different discussion (see this thread).

Testers are getting great RAW video out of this old camera:

Shot at 1880x720: http://vimeo.com/66331469

http://vimeo.com/66577982

But RAW is a lot of work - and the camera still doesn't have a headphone jack.

If you want a 5D - and your budget supports it, I recommend you try to find a used 5D Mark III and install the Magic Lantern firmware, once it's stable. The camera is moire-free, you'll get higher resolution than with the Mark II - and it has a headphone jack :)

Here is what this camera can do with the ML upgrade (5D Mark III with RAW vs factory 5D Mark III vs GH3):

http://vimeo.com/66063838

Almost makes me want to trade my GH3 for a 5D Mk III. Almost.

Cheers,

Bill
 
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