Credit Adjustments for Proper Funding

[Paul Jahan]

Project : Independent Documentary:

We are where we cant go further without funding for our independent Documentary film.

We have already bought basic equipment (with our own funds )shot around 60hrs of footage and interviews (90% of our content), figured budget, created website, etc.
Now we need to get down to editing - a whole lot f it !
So, now we are putting together - last few months - a "through" proposal with all the details (may need advice in a separate question).

QUESTION:
My partner suggest that we must divide the credits and put a whole bunch of extra people (who have done very minor work) in our crew - because if we put (the two of us) as the directors, producers, editors... no one will believe in us (it's our first movie).

Any advice would be appreciated !

 

[Sweetie]

I believe in the sanctity of the credits. Do you want the credits for your first movie to be a lie?

 

[directorik]

QUESTION:
My partner suggest that we must divide the credits and put a whole bunch of extra people (who have done very minor work) in our crew - because if we put (the two of us) as the directors, producers, editors... no one will believe in us (it's our first movie).

I get the impression that you feel giving on screen credit the
this "whole bunch of extra people" isn't a good thing. Am I
correct? If there a reason you don't want to give credit to these
people? Do you believe your partner is correct that no one will
believe in you if you don't divide the credits?

I can offer some advice with a little more info.

 

[Paul Jahan]

Re: directorik


Yes...

I always belief in absolute transparency and truth, so have a hard time with this issue.
"these people" (LOL) They do deserve - and will get credit - one way or another for the help they have given us / tasks done

On the other hand - I see my partners point - We are novices in film making...
(FYI : he has co-edited , and studied BFA in film, I have never made film but have done plenty freelance video editing. Our story is strong - without a doubt ... and our belief in the cause - thats what keeps us going)
So, in short, I do see from the other side: "These to newbies, want $80K to make a film, and they are doing multiple things them selves... May be they cant do it - lets fund the other guy..."

would appreciate any further advice / insight.

 

[Paul Jahan]

First movie "being a Lie" - is kinda extreme statement - by I get your sentiments...

Of course we are not making up the names out of the blue sky, but stretching the actual tasks they have accomplished. They all have been - and will be part of this project one way or another.

 

[Sweetie]

First movie "being a Lie" - is kinda extreme statement

It really depends on what you mean. If you had people doing PA work, giving them Set Design credit (for example) to me it's akin to fraud. There is a common practice in no budget/low budget filming for upgrading credits. Camera man doing the duties of the DOP, Lighting Assistant to Gaffer and so on. They tend to do the jobs that they did.

Of course we are not making up the names out of the blue sky

I would have never consider that anyone in their right mind would. To me that's obviously over the line.

stretching the actual tasks they have accomplished

This is what I was specifically talking about in my initial reply.

What I believe you should do is give the credits that are actually deserved. Since you did most of the duties, put that under a title of "A film by" or something similar.

 

[directorik]

Re: directorik


Yes...

I always belief in absolute transparency and truth, so have a hard time with this issue.

You believe in “absolute transparency and truth” so when asking for money
you should be absolutely transparent and truthful.

So, in short, I do see from the other side: "These to newbies, want $80K to make a film, and they are doing multiple things them selves... May be they cant do it - lets fund the other guy...

Okay, they may not fund you. If your partner believes that they will not fund
you because you are transparent and truthful are you prepared to hide the facts
from them? I can't offer much insight or advice. You and your partner have to
decide what is most important; absolute transparency and truth or adding a
whole bunch of extra people (who have done very minor work) in your credits.

I do not believe a long credits list will make a difference in finding funding. If
a producer loves your film and believes it will make money then it doesn't matter
how many people worked on it.

 

[SkyCopeland]

Actually I'm going to disagree with directorik, although I completely understand his view on it.

If I saw a film on Kickstarter that was done by two guys and they were asking for funding, I would much rather see they have 20 some people who have helped this project come along, rather than just these two people.

The other people aboard the project tells me that these people could get 20 people to dedicate time from their daily life to be apart of this. The ability to bring a crew together, to me, means more than their passion.

Anyone can be passionate about something they believe in. Not anyone can bring together like minded people to actually get it done.

As for lying....

"Of course we are not making up the names out of the blue sky, but stretching the actual tasks they have accomplished. They all have been - and will be part of this project one way or another."

Then you're not lying. That makes them part of your crew. Even if I came on your set for one day and helped set up lights, I was a Swing on your project, and I'd expect the credit. I find it more disrespectful that you downplay their help, even if their help was minor, they believed in you and helped, give them the credit.

-------------------

On a completely unrelated note... I don't care if you have a crew list of 100 people, if you go to any crowdfunding website and ask for 80,000$, you'll fail. I can say that without a single doubt. That's an absurd amount of money to crowdfund for an indie film. You best be looking for an indie angel investor if you want that money.

What of your post-production is costing you 80 grand? How much have you already invested during pre-production and production? To even gain the trust of people, you'd have needed to spent around that amount already, since you have no prior proof you can properly even manage an 80 grand post-production.

 

[directorik]

Actually I'm going to disagree with directorik, although I completely understand his view on it.

Not really much of a disagreement, Sky.

He didn't mention crowdfunding. He has 90% of the documentary footage
he needs. He mentioned putting together a proposal. And mentioned $80k
as an example of how much he may need. So my advice is not based on
crowdfunding. It's based on getting completion funds from an investor, prodCo
or studio.

An individual looking at crowdfunding campaign might very well chose not
to donate $50 (or a couple of hundred) to two guys they don't know. However,
an investor, prodCo or studio would look at the work already done and the
budget for completing the project. If they felt it had money making potential
they would invest even if 20 other people had not dedicated time from their
daily life to be a part if it. To investors it's about the money making potential
of the project far more than it's about how many people dedicated time from
their daily life.

 

[Paul Jahan]

Thank you for different - some what - perspectives.
In fact as we move towards fundraising we are contemplating all avenues , and it great that you are looking ahead on the next stage awaiting us.

The whole funding part - will need it's own questions with other related aspects. I will be asking for guidance on that - in a forum near you soon.

Conclusion:
I think I will take a compromise road : give everyone credits for what they have done - as well give us the main credit for producing directing writing.

 

[Paul Jahan]

Q: A FILM BY Since we are talking credits...

My partner believes that a "film by" is for the Director,
and as a co-producer, it makes no sense in the "film world" to put my name next to his.

I have read places that it snot quiet clear - and its a bogus credit anyways (since many many people work on the film).

I have no problem for him to have "A film by ' him ( he has put more sweat in thus far , shooting , directing, etc.) But as a co-producer - and someone who was the originator of the film idea (before my writings were adapted become the current script) and one who has funded most of the actual costs... I want to make sure the "film by - my partner" (director), does not take away from my part when viewers and professionals look at our credit / film.

These may sound kinda trivial... but they feel like a thorn in my side - not knowing what is "proper" and need to get past these and to finishing the film...

Thank you ahead of time for any feedback ....

 

[Sweetie]

The devil is in the details. It's a good idea to include those details when asking the question. It's often the difference between getting the answer to the question you intended to ask versus getting people's perspectives to the question they had to interpret you asked.

In smaller films, people often do many tasks. They may get a few credits, though if it goes beyond that (for instance, a crew member who does 25 out of the 30 roles), it tends to look ridiculous. It's often better to give them between 1 and 3 credits in areas where they contributed to the film the most (Director, Editor, DOP) and drop areas where their contribution mattered less (Assistant Editor, DIT, Camera assistant, catering and so on). It's not to say those other jobs aren't as important, it's an attempt to achieve the same result without making your credits look like a farce. Now I'm not talking to the importance to what you perceive to the production as a caterer would never be left out, they're one of the most important parts to production. Take what's written here and apply that to your film.

Without lying, you need to work out what's best for the people who worked on your film and at the same time work out what's best for your film.

Q: A FILM BY Since we are talking credits...

My partner believes that a "film by" is for the Director

On larger productions A film By is synonymous with directed by. On smaller films (like shorts or smaller feature films that have few crew) it's often short-hand to say, director and everything else they needed to do to get the job done.

Last thing I want to bring up. This thread if kind of a mess. It's difficult to work out what's going on. If you're running a crowdfunding campaign and you think your make or break is what crew roles you say people have done you're kidding yourself. The success of your campaign will have very little to do with who you give production credit to.

Your success will have more to do with your marketing ability and your ability to convert those people than whether you call a spade a spade or whether you used a spade or a pick to dig that hole.

For all I know, I may not "get" this entire thread.

Good luck.