Closer to Creating Life in the Laboratory

Whaaaaa? Really? It's not my favorite but it's up there.

Ok, ok, I know it's got a really low-budget feel and the guest stars were awful and didn't feel right for their respective species. But come on! Fragments of DNA coming together to express an artificially created algorithm to tell everyone that we're not so different and to get along(also a convenient explanation for the absurd idea of inter-species procreation). Plus the Romulan interaction at the end is classic Picard and TNG. It's so good!

Maybe it just suffers from being in the middle of a great group of TNG eps: Starship Mine, Ship in a Bottle, Frame of Mind, Lessons (j/k :lol:)?

For me, this episode was comparable to when "Star Wars" started talking about midichlorians. You know, I was just happy accepting that The Force was The Force. Likewise, I didn't need an explanation for the fact that the universe of Trek has so many humanoids that look the same, except with different hair cuts, or an occasional bump on their head.

I'm not a professional anthropologist, never will be, but I'll never be able to change my brain's framework; I'll always be a student of anthropology, at least in the way I view the world. Anyway, telling a student of anthropology that human life originated extra-terrestrially, and that our DNA had been programmed to follow a certain path, well, that's kinda like telling an historian that the holocaust never happened, or telling a mathematician that the Pythagorean Theorem is based on false-logic. Me no likey.
 
We know that animals from separate species cannot produce viable offspring, right? So the interspecies reproduction in Star Trek seems to be a say-what? that it has to live with and probably can never explain satisfactorily. It's kinda funny really.

Edit****

Also, I thought that I was taught in school that hybrids of separate species are sterile. But a quick google search taught me that apparently not all hybrids are sterile.

Have any of the hybrids on Star Trek actually reproduced?

So, given what you know about interspecies breeding in Star Trek, what would all this mean for the relationships among the humanoid species in the Star Trek Universe? Perhaps that Vulcans and Humans, for example, are at least from the same genus? Or from the same family perhaps? Over my head I guess. :rolleyes:
 
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We know that animals from separate species cannot produce viable offspring, right? So the interspecies reproduction in Star Trek seems to be a say-what? that it has to live with and probably can never explain satisfactorily. It's kinda funny really.

Edit****

Also, I thought that I was taught in school that hybrids of separate species are sterile. But a quick google search taught me that apparently not all hybrids are sterile.

Have any of the hybrids on Star Trek actually reproduced?

So, given what you know about interspecies breeding in Star Trek, what would all this mean for the relationships among the humanoid species in the Star Trek Universe? Perhaps that Vulcans and Humans, for example, are at least from the same genus? Or from the same family perhaps? Over my head I guess. :rolleyes:

Taxonomy is far from an exact science. Differentiating one species from another is rarely a black/white issue, and usually involves a whole bunch of grey. That whole thing about producing viable offspring -- that definition works much of the time, but as you know, not always. A chihuahua and a wolf could create viable offspring, but you'd be asinine to suggest that they are the same species.

To be honest, differentiating one species from another is often somewhat arbitrary, and even sometimes political (because if a population of a particular animal is officially labeled as it's own species, that might determine whether or not it makes it's way on the Endangered Species List).

As for your question regarding inter-species mating on "Trek", well, if you accept the aforementioned episode as part of the canon, then it might not be inter-species. According to that episode, we were designed to become the species that we did, as were all of those other near-identical aliens. If that's true, then taxonomists might very well label us as the same species, but different sub-species.

As an example, one of the biggest controversies in anthropology is the question of whether or not neanderthals were the same species as us, and whether or not we replaced them, or brought them into our fold. We have been labeled Homo sapien sapiens (the 2nd sapiens is the sub-species). The question is whether or not neanderthals should be called Homo neanderthalensis or Homo sapien neanderthalensis.

Anyway, if you accept this crappy episode of TNG, then it could be argued that Earth-bound taxonomy might very well label the Klingons as Homo sapien klingonus
 
Taxonomy is far from an exact science. Differentiating one species from another is rarely a black/white issue, and usually involves a whole bunch of grey. That whole thing about producing viable offspring -- that definition works much of the time, but as you know, not always. A chihuahua and a wolf could create viable offspring, but you'd be asinine to suggest that they are the same species.

To be honest, differentiating one species from another is often somewhat arbitrary, and even sometimes political (because if a population of a particular animal is officially labeled as it's own species, that might determine whether or not it makes it's way on the Endangered Species List).

As for your question regarding inter-species mating on "Trek", well, if you accept the aforementioned episode as part of the canon, then it might not be inter-species. According to that episode, we were designed to become the species that we did, as were all of those other near-identical aliens. If that's true, then taxonomists might very well label us as the same species, but different sub-species.

As an example, one of the biggest controversies in anthropology is the question of whether or not neanderthals were the same species as us, and whether or not we replaced them, or brought them into our fold. We have been labeled Homo sapien sapiens (the 2nd sapiens is the sub-species). The question is whether or not neanderthals should be called Homo neanderthalensis or Homo sapien neanderthalensis.

Anyway, if you accept this crappy episode of TNG, then it could be argued that Earth-bound taxonomy might very well label the Klingons as Homo sapien klingonus


I love it. Er, not necessarily the episode, but all that stuff. Great explanation.
 
As an example, one of the biggest controversies in anthropology is the question of whether or not neanderthals were the same species as us, and whether or not we replaced them, or brought them into our fold. We have been labeled Homo sapien sapiens (the 2nd sapiens is the sub-species). The question is whether or not neanderthals should be called Homo neanderthalensis or Homo sapien neanderthalensis.

I remember reading in 'A Short History of Nearly Everything' that because of the number of chromosomes in the human and neanderthal dna, that offspring would end up with an odd number of chromosomes and therefore be sterile. (or something like that :P) Fascinating stuff!
 
I remember reading in 'A Short History of Nearly Everything' that because of the number of chromosomes in the human and neanderthal dna, that offspring would end up with an odd number of chromosomes and therefore be sterile. (or something like that :P) Fascinating stuff!

I was going to write that that might explain why they hadn't found any Neanderthal dna in modern humans, or so I too had heard on some TV program not long ago. Maybe that info was based upon the study described here:

Neanderthals Didn't Mate With Modern Humans, Study Says (National Geographic - 2008)

So, I was trying to find a link to the program or programs I had heard that from, but instead I found this more recent article from National Geographic Daily News - 2010:

Neanderthals, Humans Interbred—First Solid DNA Evidence

Funny how things can change significantly in science when a new study comes out. How cool is that?

Soooooo, maybe Quest for Fire got it right!?

It is just so fascinating how dna testing is finding out these sometimes wild connections between people and peoples.
 
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Funny how things can change significantly in science when a new study comes out. How cool is that?

The only thing that changes quickly is the public perception of what's going on in science. A study is released that claims to have a big new finding, and scientifically-minded publications jump all over it. And then the general public thinks that everything has changed.

There's nothing wrong with that. It makes for an entertaining read, and I myself enjoy these kinds of science-for-the-masses articles. But one study doesn't mean jack squat.

Scientific concensus, at least on subject matters like this, works much more slowly. There's a really big difference between the articles that are read by the masses, and those that are read by professional scientists, in scientific journals.

For starters, they're worded and constructed very differently. You have to take advanced English classes to learn how to properly word things in a scientific journal. There is also a pre-established format for exactly what type of content should be included, and in what order it is to be presented. Basically, they're designed to show, in extreme detail, how the study followed the scientific method, exactly what they did, and exactly what the results were, without any human bias (or so we wish). Also, unless you're deeply entrenched in the particular issue being studied, scientific journals are INCREDIBLY boring to read.

Anyway, the reason it's done like this is because it gives other scientists the opportunity to attempt to replicate the results. Other studies are done, by many different scientists, in many different locations. They might follow similar methods, or they might try something completely different, but they're all looking for the answer to roughly the same question. If an overwhelming majority of these studies point in the same direction, then FINALLY, a theory can be accepted.

I'm ten years removed from my undergrad studies, so things could've changed since then, but to the best of my knowledge (and I follow it at least a little bit), the controversy is still just as contentious as ever. The fact that you found two different studies, with completely different indications, is just evidence of the fact that the debate rages on!

"Quest for Fire"? Ooh, I've never heard of that movie. I think I shall watch it (thanks for mentioning it)! Upfront, though, it's not looking so great for scientific accuracy. In the synopsis of the story, it explains that a group of Cro Magnons lose their flame, that they keep burning eternally. And thus, they go seek out a new flame.

You have no idea how difficult it is for me to not laugh, while writing that plot-synopsis. I'm not laughing at you, cuz this isn't common everyday knowledge, but I would hope a movie would do just a touch of research. :lol:

Cro Magnons were 100% anatomically-modern Homo sapien sapiens, i.e. -- us. The stone tools they created were incredibly intricate, and they expanded out of Africa, peopling the entire world in a ridiculously short amount of time. You can rest assured that they had full command over fire, and would not have to seek it out. They knew how to start it, with almost no effort. Could be a fun movie, nonetheless.

(EDIT: Wait, I just discovered that this is actually a comedy. So, that can of course be forgiven. Now I'm totally watching it.)
(EDIT2: No, no, found more info that says it is not a comedy, just that it has some comedy in it. That makes it unforgiven. I'm so looking forward to watching this movie.)

Dready, I never heard about that specific argument, but I'm sure it's got some merit. It's just that there are so many conflicting arguments that this debate seems impossible to end (for now). Personally, I fall on the side that says we replaced them, but it is archaeological evidence that sways me the most.

Dang, it's so rare that I get to talk about this kind of stuff. I enjoyed that. Thanks for humoring me, or taking whatever interest. Cheers! :D
 
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Cracker, thanks again for an awesome explanation!

About Quest for Fire, um, unfortunately(?)...it's not a comedy. But you know, I think that I've noticed their calling the main characters Cro Magnons and disregarded it. I've always thought that they ought to be characterized as Neanderthals and that's how I decided for my part that they are...regardless of whatever the filmmakers or its marketers meant. When you check it out, I suspect you'll see what I mean. They have the makeup with the big brows etc. Their languange is crude, etc. It's actually difficult to believe that the filmmakers really intended the main characters to be Cro Magnons. I want to blame the marketers or somebody else. So I've always more-or-less thought it was about a Neanderthal guy (played by Everitt McGill ...holy crap, I never new or guessed he was the People Under the Stairs guy!) and a Cro Magnon girl (played by Ray Dawn Chong) in a romantic (and sexual/copulatory) relationship. I heard someone once joke that Ray Dawn Chong taught humankind the missionary position. :lol:

That movie is a classic. But you will see some pretty ridiculous things. Still, back in my school days I once heard a professor say that one interesting thing the movie might do is at least portray a bit of a sense of how tenuous and sometimes bleak life must have been like for early humans or other hominids. You know, small bands of people under Big Sky Country just trying to survive and that sort of thing. Also, you might feel like a cold shower, as they say.

Very sorry for all the spoilers. Hope it doesn't diminish your viewing enjoyment. And I'd love to hear your reactions and thoughts after you have. I'll bet it will drive you up a wall, but remember...just breath deeply and laugh at. Not that there's nothing to like though either.
 
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Einsteins theory of relativity was also never proven either.

What the hell are you guys smoking in here? :)

Without taking relativity into account, GPS systems would be incredibly inaccurate. This means that relativity actually has practical applications in the real world.
 
Wait guys, the Cro-Mags were the bad guys on Sliders, and like CFunk said, they totally knew how to make fire.

I was just basing that on what it says on Netflix. Perhaps it is they who got it wrong -- sounds like you and richy are in agreement as to whom is the neanderthal.

I just ordered it; I shall report my totally-non-expert opinion, shortly. In the meanwhile, I will say this, though -- for a long time, I've actually wanted to make a movie in a similar setting. I think it'd be really cool to make a movie in which the protagonists are Cro-mags, and I would want to take extreme measures to make sure that the movie is as scientifically accurate as possible. With the nature of the setting, of course I'd have to just make a bunch of stuff up, but I would really try to make things up, as plausibly as possible.

Anyway, our conversation got me thinking about this potential future project again. For some reason, I always assumed this movie would require a very large budget (many millions), and thus it's only stayed in the back of my brain, as a dream project that would probably never happen. In retrospect, why in the world did I think that?

The truth is just the opposite. Cro-mags lived in very small population densities, so the film wouldn't require a large cast. In order to film it, we would have to go to remote locations, ones which appear to have not been spoiled by modern human activity. That means I could totally shoot it guerrilla. Now that I think about it, the largest cost would be cast (and that wouldn't be a huge cost). The second largest cost would be props and costumes, and that also wouldn't be a large number. The biggest difficulty, actually, would be the amount of time spent on creating authentic props/costumes, but it could be done.

Wow. I think I know what my 2nd-to-next movie is! :yes:

What the hell are you guys smoking in here? :)

Without taking relativity into account, GPS systems would be incredibly inaccurate. This means that relativity actually has practical applications in the real world.

Whoah there, cowboy! The person who said that does not speak for all of us. I agree with you on this one.

The only thing I said about Einstein's Theory of Relativity is that the formula E=MC2 is basically arbitrary. And that is true (ask a professional physicist; I have). The reason it is arbitrary is because it contains units of measurements, and those human constructs are 100% arbitrary. Einstein basically just made this formula up.

The way that it is not arbitrary is that the intent of the formula is to show that there's a whole bunch of energy in really small things. And by including the square of the speed of light, that is going to make a really big number, no matter what M is. So, in that respect, the formula does it's job, but Einstein could've just as easily have said that E=.5MC2, and the formula would've been just as useful and valid. Either way, it's arbitrary.
 
I was just basing that on what it says on Netflix. Perhaps it is they who got it wrong -- sounds like you and richy are in agreement as to whom is the neanderthal.

Oh no, I haven't seen the movie. I was just making a reference to the TV show Sliders. Don't tell me you haven't seen it? :P

And I think it's pretty clear you know your bones about this subject :)
 
Oh no, I haven't seen the movie. I was just making a reference to the TV show Sliders. Don't tell me you haven't seen it? :P

And I think it's pretty clear you know your bones about this subject :)

:lol: No pun intended? I do know my stuff, but I don't have a PhD or anything. When I post my review, I'll do my best to make clear which things I'm saying are definitely commonly agreed-upon, verses the stuff that is my opinion.

And no, I had not heard of "Sliders". Looks like I've got more material to watch, and it's on Netflix instant queue. Cool!

Gotta head to work. Cheers!
 
The first 2 seasons are great. There's a sprinkling of good episodes in the 3rd and 4th seasons. Don't even bother with the 5th. Watch the pilot first but then order doesn't really matter.

I just looked on Netflix and unfortunately one of the best episodes (and one dealing with a parallel universe where Einstein lied about his research so the bomb couldn't be made) is disc only. :(

Have fun at work!
 
Wait guys, the Cro-Mags were the bad guys on Sliders, and like CFunk said, they totally knew how to make fire.

:lol:


I was just basing that on what it says on Netflix. Perhaps it is they who got it wrong -- sounds like you and richy are in agreement as to whom is the neanderthal.

I just ordered it; I shall report my totally-non-expert opinion, shortly. In the meanwhile, I will say this, though -- for a long time, I've actually wanted to make a movie in a similar setting. I think it'd be really cool to make a movie in which the protagonists are Cro-mags, and I would want to take extreme measures to make sure that the movie is as scientifically accurate as possible. With the nature of the setting, of course I'd have to just make a bunch of stuff up, but I would really try to make things up, as plausibly as possible.

Oh gosh, it's best not to listen to me. I guess I shouldn't doubt that they intended to portray the main characters as Cro Magnons. But over the years damned if I've been able to figure what all of the different humans(?) in that movie are supposed to be. I think it's a bit of a mess. It's just that I have long figured that it would make the most sense if they, Naoh and his lot, are Neanderthals and then Ika and her people are the early modern humans. I think it's better to tune the filmmakers' apparent intentions and the rest of it out. :P


Anyway, our conversation got me thinking about this potential future project again. For some reason, I always assumed this movie would require a very large budget (many millions), and thus it's only stayed in the back of my brain, as a dream project that would probably never happen. In retrospect, why in the world did I think that?

The truth is just the opposite. Cro-mags lived in very small population densities, so the film wouldn't require a large cast. In order to film it, we would have to go to remote locations, ones which appear to have not been spoiled by modern human activity. That means I could totally shoot it guerrilla. Now that I think about it, the largest cost would be cast (and that wouldn't be a huge cost). The second largest cost would be props and costumes, and that also wouldn't be a large number. The biggest difficulty, actually, would be the amount of time spent on creating authentic props/costumes, but it could be done.

Wow. I think I know what my 2nd-to-next movie is! :yes:


And I was thinking that you should do that very thing. :) Awesome.

Edit*****

Orrrrrrr, I could use my brain and think to check my copy of the DVD to see if it has any commentaries. Duh! So, the cool news is that the DVD does have two commentary tracks. I didn't even realize it until this discussion caused me to look just now. Maybe they'll clear some things up. Guess what I'm off to listen to. :rolleyes:

Edit*****

Well, I think the filmmakers involved with the making of Quest for Fire are a pretty impressive bunch. It was a four year project for its director, Jean-Jacques Annaud. He says on the commentary track that he was and is very serious about anthropology. He even had Desmond Morris working on the film. Some or even a bunch of the actors spent six months training to behave essentially like chimps. They had a 50 million dollar budget in 1980, which was a substantial budget at that time according to Annaud. Anthony Burgess (If I have that right) created a three-hundred word vocabulary for the main tribe. Anthony Burgess wrote A Clockwork Orange and is also, according to Annaud and Perlman, a linguist specializing in Indo-European languages, or something like that. The actors worked very hard and were put through a lot of tough crap and even health endangering stuff, the point being that they all put a lot into the making of the film. The movie actually did quite well at the box office when it came out. I won't tell anymore more in case anyone wants to listen to the commentaries themselves sometime.

Unfortunately, neither Annaud nor the actors say a word about homo sapien subspecies. They only speak of "tribes" and of tribes being more or less primitive. =( All the more reason to want to hear the Cracker Analysis on the scientific merit and authenticity of the film's early human world. =D

I got the DVD earlier this year, I think at Barnes for ten dollars. So I would guess that probably means that you can get it elsewhere at an even better price. It includes two audio commentary tracks that are well worth the listening to if you are interested in this movie or in its subject matter.
 
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On the subject of the originas of life, the discovery of water both on Mars and the moon will have to cause a rethink of our origins.

Also, the discovery of a growing number of Earth-like planets in other solar systems should be considered too. It is re-writing of the origins of life.
 
Okay, I watched it. Wow. That was fun. I laughed a lot.

The filmmakers did not give a rat's-ass about scientific accuracy. On the most basic surface-level, I could ask where the hell this movie takes place. Our heroes encounter wooly mammoths, lions, and a brown bear, all within the span of a few days. Hmm, that places them between central Africa and northern Eurasia; they sure do walk fast!

I point that out because it is the most obvious error, something that requires no expertise to see the flaw in. And when it comes to the more detailed stuff, they really took some serious liberties.

richy, I agree that whomever said that our heroes are Cro-mags just made a typo, or they're just completely uneducated on the subject. I'll at least give the filmmakers a tiny bit of shadow of doubt and assume that they intended our protags to be neanderthal, and the girl they encounter is Cro-mag.

That doesn't excuse them from taking serious liberty by introducing a third human species, the evil fur-covered marauding man-chimps! When sapiens met neanderthal, there was only one other species of human alive, and they were in east Asia (and very similar to neanderthal).

My main problem is that they made them dumb. There is absolutely no reason to believe that neanderthals were any less intelligent than us. In all living animals, those whom we've tested for cognitive abilities, brain-size matters. Not straight-up brain-size, but brain-size in relation to body-size. In that department, neanderthals are actually slightly ahead of us.

You will not find any anthropologist who would tell you that the neanderthals were any less intelligent than us. The stone tools they mastered were pretty awesome. They flourished in really cold environments. The idea that they hadn't mastered fire is completely fucking moronic. So, there goes the entire story of "Quest for Fire".

It's also ridiculously silly that they walked with arched backs, and often shuffled, as if they were half chimp. Jesus-titty-fucking-Christ, they were human!

The one thing the filmmakers apparently did research is the going theory on why neanderthals might not have mated with sapiens. Many anthropologists believe that neanderthals did not have command of full language, like we do (this is the camp that I fall into).

I can't speak for everybody on this side of the issue, but for me the biggest piece of evidence is the lack of cultural drift, between sapiens and neanderthals. Cultural drift is something that we see everywhere, at all times, between human populations. If a population of humans lives next to another, they share things with each other. Language, religion, art, technology, you-name-it, stuff is going to be shared. We see this in modern human populations as well as in the archaeological record. Every single piece of evidence shows that humans share everything with other humans who are nearby, even when that other group might be enemies.

But there is exactly one exception: neanderthals never adopted the neolithic technology that Cro-mags brought with them. They shared the same space for at least 20K years, and the difference between neolithic and paleolithic technology is rather extreme. How in the hell did the neanderthals never pick up on this new technology? They couldn't speak the same way that we do; that's the going theory.

So, the filmmakers got that part right. What they got wrong was why they couldn't speak. The brain-power was there, no question about that. If neanderthal couldn't speak like we do, it was because of a physical limitation.

As far as speech is concerned, there is one thing that is rather unique about humans, in comparison to other animals. It is the placement of our voice-box. Our larynx and hyoid are much farther down our throat than in other animals. The downside is that a very necessary activity, breathing, becomes a little more difficult (other animals are physically capable of breathing and swallowing at the same time). The upside is that our tongue is farther down our throat, leaving some space in our mouth. This space allows us to manipulate our tongue in ways not possible for other species. Our upper-palate also comes into play.

The modern-day chimp is WAY smart enough to speak, but they aren't physically capable. Likewise, there is no question that neanderthals were as smart as us, but the same logic applies. They might have been forced to communicate through a combination of rudimentary grunt-like language, as well as rudimentary sign-language.

And that is what the filmmakers got right. I can't say they are correct, because there are MANY anthropologists who believe that neanderthals had full-capacity language, just like us. But at least the filmmakers got one side of the argument right. What they got wrong is that they think neanderthals couldn't speak because they were dumb.

As to the question of whether or not sapiens and neanderthals mated -- I must begrudgingly give the filmmakers credit and say that they kind-of, sort-of, almost got it right. It really pains me to say so, because I think their assessment of early-human procreation is fucking asinine.

It really bothered me, and I mean really, it kinda pissed me off, to see that the filmmakers thought that early humans procreated like dogs. Male-selection, that's how early humans mated. If a dude wanted to fuck a girl, he did. She could not protest, nor would she even try. Asinine.

Neanderthals buried their dead. They had religion. And yet I'm supposed to believe that when it comes to procreation, they behave on the level of a dog? Even our lesser-evolutionary-relatives, monkeys, have complex social systems that determine who mates with whom. Even if they didn't have full language, I think it's fair to say that neanderthals behaved roughly the same as we do.

However, if there were to be a mating between sapien and neanderthal, this is just a total guess on my part, but I would think it most likely would be a neanderthal(male)-sapien(female) rape. And that's pretty much what they did in this movie, except for some inexplicable reason, she decided that she likes her neanderthal, and teaches him the beauty of the missionary position. Which, by the way, the missionary position is highly underrated.
 
That was a fun read! Thanks :)

What are your thoughts about that site archaeologists found that was essentially a quarry and factory that appears to have existed, in use, making the exact same tools the exact same way for 2 million years? And the further mystery that they appear not to have lived anywhere near the site and we have no idea who they were (iirc the theory is that they were Homo-Erectus)?

Just curious.
 
That was a fun read! Thanks :)

What are your thoughts about that site archaeologists found that was essentially a quarry and factory that appears to have existed, in use, making the exact same tools the exact same way for 2 million years? And the further mystery that they appear not to have lived anywhere near the site and we have no idea who they were (iirc the theory is that they were Homo-Erectus)?

Just curious.

Sweet. Well, I'm glad at least one person enjoyed my ramblings. :)

I'm not 100% sure I know what you're referring to, but I think I have an idea. There was this cave in East Africa that produced a ridiculous amount of fossils, over a really long period of time. Lots of stone tools, and lots of remains of half-eaten animals. If I remember/understood correctly, this basically resulted from shit falling to the bottom of the cave, which conveniently had conditions ripe for fossilization. So, it wasn't a great find because our human ancestors had intentionally made it this great ritual site, or anything like that, but because fossilization requires a great deal of coincidences, and this site happened to be the motherload of coincidental circumstances. Or, something like that. Idunno, you have a link?

And, yes, early stone tool technology remained the same, for a really long time.
 
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