Budget compromises?

[Santhem]

Mostly I'v just been helping other people with their vfx, but I'd like to get started on producing content myself. Since i'v been reading and viewing the progress of most people here on this forum I kinda know the basic points that require more attention than you'd expect. Sound, permits & insurance, planning, distribution etc.

If I were to self-fund this I really wouldn't be comfortable (and able) to spend more than ~6k on this project. However, the idea i'v got buzzing around in my head requires quite an expensive (mountain-y) location. Not to get into details, but getting cast and crew on location, hotels, equipment rentals, basic wages for good crew, permits and (where necessary) insurance would according to my estimates eat up more budget then I have.

So i'v been thinking.... Should I get additional funding? I don't think this would be really fair, if I don't even have enough money get it made, leaving nothing for distribution... Its almost a sure-fire bet it won't make half of its money back, let alone turn a profit. I'm comfortable with this, but I don't think anyone not making the movie will be.

And so I'v got to the point where I'm trying to figure out how to get this thing made within the budget. Shooting at a close-by, cheap location and easily accessible would require me to throw out most of the script, and I don't know that that option even exists.

Should I just lower my expectations and just shoot a trailer with my budget, then see if I can get some crowdfunding going?
I'm not really sure what to do going forward... Anyone with tips, or someone who's been there?

 

[FantasyFilmProductions]

Ok so you have 6k in total, and you are saying that on such a budget you cannot shoot the movie you want to shoot. This is a reality for many indie film makers.

Obvious solution...
Come up with another film that you can shoot on your budget, do all you can to make it profit, then if you are lucky enough to profit, take said profits to make the movie you really want to make.

 

[Santhem]

Ok so you have 6k in total, and you are saying that on such a budget you cannot shoot the movie you want to shoot. This is a reality for many indie film makers.

Obvious solution...
Come up with another film that you can shoot on your budget, do all you can to make it profit, then if you are lucky enough to profit, take said profits to make the movie you really want to make.

Yeah reading on this forum that seems like it is the reality. The truth is however, I wouldn't have a clue how I could make a decent movie on a limited budget like that. It seems fairly impossible. I like to do things right, so If I can't make something decent, I'd probably just stick with working on other peoples projects when they need vfx.

So what I'm really looking for is options to shoot the movie I want to shoot on a low budget. Where can you compromise? What would be the chances of getting funded if I'd only shoot a trailer and use that to get the rest of the money? How low can you go with the number of people and actors on set, etc. Any smart tips and tricks to tell a story the right way on a low budget.

If anyone has ideas, even broad ones. Most appreciated .

 

[PhantomScreenwriter]

One alternative is to look for a couple of actors who you feel are really, really good and with their help collaborate to create a screenplay that suits their strengths and your strengths, to make it a short character piece. That way you will be able to present a short to potential investors that showcases your abilities.

 

[rayw]

Shelve this idea.
Move onto your next dozen ideas.
Produce what makes sense, not what "can be done."

 

[8salacious9]

with 6k i could make 2 feature films.

stop being selfish, reduce the costs, make production more accessible, find and exploit newbies who want to do anything for film (at least feed them though) and you will reduce costs greatly, also think about set design, there could be places which have parts that look like where you need to film but not the whole thing, which is fine because your not filming lord of the rings or the hobbit, do some smart shooting, fake set extension if you have to.

 

[Santhem]

Shelve this idea.
Move onto your next dozen ideas.
Produce what makes sense, not what "can be done."

I have considered this, but I'v been doing this... since I joined IT. I firmly believe if you want quality you can't get it cheap, unless you owe a lot of people a lot of favors... which I really don't. A few, but none are local. So thats why I asked here first before making a decision on shelving this idea.

reduce the costs, make production more accessible, find and exploit newbies who want to do anything for film (at least feed them though) and you will reduce costs greatly, also think about set design, there could be places which have parts that look like where you need to film but not the whole thing, which is fine because your not filming lord of the rings or the hobbit, do some smart shooting, fake set extension if you have to.

I can see that If you really are desperate to make movies, you can do it really indie style. But you will inevitably compromise quality of the product by producing this way. Which isn't the end of the world if its a learning experience, but I'm not in it to make dozens of movies. I'm an fx guy, I just want to work on my own project for a change If I can't do it right, I won't do it at all. Thats also why I'm hesitant to shelve this idea and wait for one thats easier on the budget. If your doing an fx-"heavy" movie by indie standards (kind of a showcase of what I can do), its always going to be inherently expensive than say a dialogue-driven love story (unless we're talking titanic, but you know...)

One alternative is to look for a couple of actors who you feel are really, really good and with their help collaborate to create a screenplay that suits their strengths and your strengths, to make it a short character piece. That way you will be able to present a short to potential investors that showcases your abilities.

I like this idea, and it seems possible within the budget, though I'm not really sure where to actively look for actors and investors. I'm sure there's a lot written on the forums here, so don't feel obligated to point it out exactly, i'll find it. I think I'll at least try to get this off the ground before shelving.

 

[Dreadylocks]

However, the idea i'v got buzzing around in my head requires quite an expensive (mountain-y) location.

Here's the thing. You can't really know what your budget will need to be until you actually write the script. So I would worry about that first.

Once you see what you have on paper, break it all down, see exactly what locations you will need. How many days it will take to shoot. All that stuff.

Then you can start planning. i.e. "How many of these locations can be faked?" Anything indoors, probably. For the outdoor locations, "Can we get some b-roll footage or guerilla style for a couple shots and then change locations to something free or cheap?" Probably.

Remember, the audience is easily fooled. They want to be taken for a ride, that's why they are watching a movie.

 

[Santhem]

Here's the thing. You can't really know what your budget will need to be until you actually write the script. So I would worry about that first.

Once you see what you have on paper, break it all down, see exactly what locations you will need. How many days it will take to shoot. All that stuff.

Then you can start planning. i.e. "How many of these locations can be faked?" Anything indoors, probably. For the outdoor locations, "Can we get some b-roll footage or guerilla style for a couple shots and then change locations to something free or cheap?" Probably.

Remember, the audience is easily fooled. They want to be taken for a ride, that's why they are watching a movie.

I'v got large chunks of the script ready, so I'v got pretty good estimates of how much it'd cost me if I want to do it right. I mentioned the mountains explicitly because theyr a large part of the story (solid 70% of the script is set outdoors) and pretty much impossible to fake (especially considering the netherlands is my backyard )

I think I'll just see if i can get some people attached , make it as a short short / long trailer, and maybe turn it into a feature from there.

 

[Sweetie]

This is done on the premise that you're looking at making your own show reel without regard for much else.

I have considered this, but I'v been doing this... since I joined IT. I firmly believe if you want quality you can't get it cheap, unless you owe a lot of people a lot of favors... which I really don't. A few, but none are local. So thats why I asked here first before making a decision on shelving this idea.

I'd suggest shelving it for now until you find a script (or develop your network/techniques that puts this project) within your means.

I can see that If you really are desperate to make movies, you can do it really indie style. But you will inevitably compromise quality of the product by producing this way.

I hear you. My first project as a Producer was an 8 part webseries that goes for 76 mins all up. The production budget was originally $2k. During post production, the budget blew out a lot more, but thems the breaks I suppose. You tell me, did we compromise the production quality? (I think yes, but was it significant? I don't think so)

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLz0HSH-0iTjYMaanozm2bzJ-HKTA8b17l

Just because you're low budget, it doesn't necessarily mean you compromise all production budget. You do your best with what you have. The trick is to make a production that looks like it's worth $50k for $2k, $200k for $50k or in your case, $25k for $2k. Audio is a key area where you're going to get most of the feel for that.

I'm currently in post production for a short that was made for about $250. Shot on a Red Epic (blah blah blah). I was aiming at a production value much, much higher, though we didn't quite hit the mark I was hoping for, but I'm starting to feel we'll come close. We had scenes that were ripped out due to complexity that would have increased the crew we needed (and likely would have had to hire specialists - which was outside our budget. We used creativity to change the script and alter the other scenes that didn't work with those changes. When you make these alterations, you need to think about whether it'll kill the story or not. The story is the real thing, not locations. When I'm allowed to, I'll post the project.

I'm an fx guy, I just want to work on my own project for a change If I can't do it right, I won't do it at all. Thats also why I'm hesitant to shelve this idea and wait for one thats easier on the budget. If your doing an fx-"heavy" movie by indie standards (kind of a showcase of what I can do), its always going to be inherently expensive than say a dialogue-driven love story (unless we're talking titanic, but you know...)

There are inherent costs associated with productions. Most of that is people power. *IF* you get most (if not all) of the people power for free (or exchange for other services you can provide), most of it is possible, you just have to look for cheaper methods or alternatives.

Should I get additional funding? I don't think this would be really fair, if I don't even have enough money get it made, leaving nothing for distribution... Its almost a sure-fire bet it won't make half of its money back, let alone turn a profit.

No. Don't do it. I don't know if you care about the future, you may not. Is it worth burning investors on something that even you don't believe in it enough to expect it to turn a profit. What is your future reputation or credibility worth to you? Most people don't really care about the investors. The best investors are those who reinvest in your future projects and also bring in their contacts and rich friends to also invest. I basically mean, don't search for an investor unless you have a plan and a reasonable expectation to turn a profit for those investors.

 

[Alcove Audio]

If you've been lurking here for a while you know that my area of expertise is audio. However, I've been around film as my profession for over a dozen years now, and in one aspect or another of the entertainment industry for an additional thirty plus years.

Small budgets can have a big(ger) budget look and sound. To accomplish this you must be brutally honest with and about yourself, you need incredible amounts of patience, you must preproduce so completely that D-Day looks like an improvisation, you must be willing to make serious compromises, and you must have great people skills, a great sales pitch and great marketing.

One of my favorite aphorisms is "A hobbyist learns from his mistakes; a professional learns from the mistakes of others." Get out there and work on other films sets. See what works and what doesn't work; learn from the mistakes of others. As far as I'm concerned that is the problem with most indie projects; the director is reinventing the wheel, and then the cart, then the wagon, then the train, then the car..... You get the idea. There's a reason why the "Hollywood" apprentice system works; the apprentice is mentored by and learns from a series of successful, experienced professionals before venturing out on his/her own. Yes, there are the rare exceptions, but are you a bonafide, certified genius? I know that I'm not. I've learned my craft(s) from others who have "been there and done that" before me. And yes, when I was young and arrogant I ignored that advice and got bit in the ass for it. Thereafter I became a professional - I learn from the mistakes of others.

Another sign of a professional is admitting ignorance; knowing what you don't know. And let's face it, there's an awful lot that you don't know - yet.

I do audio post almost exclusively; I sit for hours every day in an isolated room all by myself. I would guess that this is a fair description of you as a Visual Effects artist. Be warned that leading a production team is radically different. I did not enjoy being on the production sound team, just too much "hurry up and wait" for me. As the director you will have the opposite problem; you will be reeling from crisis to crisis like a drunken sailor at breakneck speed. Unless you are one of those extremely rare types who thrives on high pressure this will be a living nightmare for you.

Now, I'm sure that you are familiar with Murphy's Law and all of its various corollaries. You can avoid problems/crisis by doing intense preproduction. Be brutally honest about your capabilities and your assets; you may have to seriously compromise your script, or shelve it for lack of assets. Once you have a shooting script you now need to put together your crew and your cast, and you then preproduce the hell out of it - storyboards, table readings, test shooting, location scouting (with lots of alternates). Get A LOT of input from them, especially your DP/Cinematographer and your PSM; they'll have valuable insights into your locations and your shot lists. Have your PSM interact with your wardrobe mistress/master and set dresser (some fabrics/surfaces - satins, leather, and corduroy for example - make lots of noise. I once had to ADR a scene where a couple wearing leather was whispering to each other while making out on a vinyl couch; "Isn't there any way you can clean it up!" AAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!).

One thing that you absolutely must do is treat your cast and crew like professionals; feed them well, have a well stocked, tasty craft table, appropriate shelter and sanitary facilities, etc. If you preproduce the hell out of your project (which acknowledges that their time and input is valuable) and treat the cast and crew really well they will work very hard for you and be happy doing it. This doesn't mean you are their best buddy - you are a benign tyrant; this is your project, your ultimate vision. You are willing to listen to the suggestions from the professionals who work for you, and if you are smart you will incorporate a large percentage of them, but your word is final. If you've preproduced thoroughly and really motivated your cast and crew there may even be a little time to try those crazy ideas of yours and maybe even a few of their crazy ideas.

Don't forget to plan and budget for the post production process. You may want to include your editor and sound designer and/or supervising sound editor during preproduction; they may also have some valuable insights that will improve the final product.

Okay, I'll stop rambling, you get the idea. Making a quality product of any kind is all about attention to details large and small. And that's what defeats most fledgling filmmakers - they want to get to the shoot, then find that they are missing _________ (fill in the blank), everything takes a lot longer than they expected, and Murphy plagues them at every step. Be a professional; learn from the mistakes of others.

 

[FantasyFilmProductions]

If you've been lurking here for a while you know that my area of expertise is audio. However, I've been around film as my profession for over a dozen years now, and in one aspect or another of the entertainment industry for an additional thirty plus years.

Small budgets can have a big(ger) budget look and sound. To accomplish this you must be brutally honest with and about yourself, you need incredible amounts of patience, you must preproduce so completely that D-Day looks like an improvisation, you must be willing to make serious compromises, and you must have great people skills, a great sales pitch and great marketing.

One of my favorite aphorisms is "A hobbyist learns from his mistakes; a professional learns from the mistakes of others." Get out there and work on other films sets. See what works and what doesn't work; learn from the mistakes of others. As far as I'm concerned that is the problem with most indie projects; the director is reinventing the wheel, and then the cart, then the wagon, then the train, then the car..... You get the idea. There's a reason why the "Hollywood" apprentice system works; the apprentice is mentored by and learns from a series of successful, experienced professionals before venturing out on his/her own. Yes, there are the rare exceptions, but are you a bonafide, certified genius? I know that I'm not. I've learned my craft(s) from others who have "been there and done that" before me. And yes, when I was young and arrogant I ignored that advice and got bit in the ass for it. Thereafter I became a professional - I learn from the mistakes of others.

Another sign of a professional is admitting ignorance; knowing what you don't know. And let's face it, there's an awful lot that you don't know - yet.

I do audio post almost exclusively; I sit for hours every day in an isolated room all by myself. I would guess that this is a fair description of you as a Visual Effects artist. Be warned that leading a production team is radically different. I did not enjoy being on the production sound team, just too much "hurry up and wait" for me. As the director you will have the opposite problem; you will be reeling from crisis to crisis like a drunken sailor at breakneck speed. Unless you are one of those extremely rare types who thrives on high pressure this will be a living nightmare for you.

Now, I'm sure that you are familiar with Murphy's Law and all of its various corollaries. You can avoid problems/crisis by doing intense preproduction. Be brutally honest about your capabilities and your assets; you may have to seriously compromise your script, or shelve it for lack of assets. Once you have a shooting script you now need to put together your crew and your cast, and you then preproduce the hell out of it - storyboards, table readings, test shooting, location scouting (with lots of alternates). Get A LOT of input from them, especially your DP/Cinematographer and your PSM; they'll have valuable insights into your locations and your shot lists. Have your PSM interact with your wardrobe mistress/master and set dresser (some fabrics/surfaces - satins, leather, and corduroy for example - make lots of noise. I once had to ADR a scene where a couple wearing leather was whispering to each other while making out on a vinyl couch; "Isn't there any way you can clean it up!" AAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!).

One thing that you absolutely must do is treat your cast and crew like professionals; feed them well, have a well stocked, tasty craft table, appropriate shelter and sanitary facilities, etc. If you preproduce the hell out of your project (which acknowledges that their time and input is valuable) and treat the cast and crew really well they will work very hard for you and be happy doing it. This doesn't mean you are their best buddy - you are a benign tyrant; this is your project, your ultimate vision. You are willing to listen to the suggestions from the professionals who work for you, and if you are smart you will incorporate a large percentage of them, but your word is final. If you've preproduced thoroughly and really motivated your cast and crew there may even be a little time to try those crazy ideas of yours and maybe even a few of their crazy ideas.

Don't forget to plan and budget for the post production process. You may want to include your editor and sound designer and/or supervising sound editor during preproduction; they may also have some valuable insights that will improve the final product.

Okay, I'll stop rambling, you get the idea. Making a quality product of any kind is all about attention to details large and small. And that's what defeats most fledgling filmmakers - they want to get to the shoot, then find that they are missing _________ (fill in the blank), everything takes a lot longer than they expected, and Murphy plagues them at every step. Be a professional; learn from the mistakes of others.

Completely agree.

I would only add, knowing that the actual scenery will sell the movie as much as anything else, that color correction is going to be very important so leave some of that post production coin for that too.

 

[Zensteve]

Mostly I'v just been helping other people with their vfx, but I'd like to get started on producing content myself.

Cool. They owe you any favours by now?

If I were to self-fund this I really wouldn't be comfortable (and able) to spend more than ~6k on this project.

K, so you have 6k

However, the idea i'v got buzzing around in my head requires quite an expensive (mountain-y) location. Not to get into details, but getting cast and crew on location, hotels, equipment rentals, basic wages for good crew, permits and (where necessary) insurance would according to my estimates eat up more budget then I have.

No matter what your budget is... it will never be enough.

Name a movie. Any movie. I can guarantee that there's a producer or seven onboard who's scrambling for more money every day, or looking for things to cut to spread that budget out. Noone has enough. You only have what you have.

I'v got to the point where I'm trying to figure out how to get this thing made within the budget. Shooting at a close-by, cheap location and easily accessible would require me to throw out most of the script, and I don't know that that option even exists.

I am confident you can make that 6k work, if you plan for it.

Should I just lower my expectations and just shoot a trailer with my budget, then see if I can get some crowdfunding going?

Generally, I'd say that's a terrible idea. But then again, the quirky awesome short film Rare Exports Inc (linkage) managed to generate enough buzz that a feature could be spun out of it... 8 years later. (terribly Hollywood-ised movie trailer).

Can you too wait that long?

Your posts further on indicate you really don't have the budget to pay cast/crew well. That's fine. Find cast/crew who don't need to be paid a lot, or at all. They will be out there, if you have some charisma and a passion for your script. Call in favours you're owed; promise favours to people in the future. Stretch that 6k and make it count.

I'm rambling; it's late; I'm tired. Headin' out. Just remember, you can be doing one of two things. Planning to make your movie happen... or counting the obstacles in the way. Good luck.

.

 

[trueindie]

Hey Santhem,
Just wanted to say hi, and wanted to mention that after reading this thread, it definitely sounds like you've got the right approach. At least I like your approach. It's similar to mine. And I agree wholeheartedly, that if you want to make a quality film, some money has to be spent. Some people are geniuses and can make excellent things for nothing. All I know is that I don't know how to do that.

Just a couple of cents from me, from my experience.
-Audio is 60% of a quality film. If everything else is perfect, if there's even a slight problem with the audio, your audience will notice. If there's a slight problem with the video, they might let it go, thinking it's a special effect. But they'll recognize audio problems. I tried to solve this problem by purchasing good microphones, and good lavs, and recorders. It was money ill spent. None of the crew knew how to really use the equipment. So my advice would be not to spend money on audio equipment, instead to save money to pay an audio guy. Some people might disagree, but I've stopped using my equipment. I only use people now for audio. Most of them come with their own, much better equipment. So become bosom buddies with an audio guy.


- It is my opinion that 90% of directing is casting. Try to find good actors and build relationships with them. It's hard, as actors are busy doing all sorts of things. But remember, that they need you just as much as you need them. Just know in the back of your mind that if the acting is poor, no matter how good the production value, the audience will not believe the characters you put up on screen.

That's all I have got. These are the only two rules that I live by. I'm not always able to correctly execute, but I now try to make sure that I have good audio, and that the actors are right for the part. Everything else, I work around, make allowances for, or get to later.

Hope I made some sense above. I'm really pleased you've joined the forum. Can't wait to see your stuff.
Best regards,
Aveek

 

[gorillaonabike]

You live in the world's flattest country and you are talking about the cost of shooting with mountain backdrops?????????

It's like living in the middle of the Sahara and making a feature about a ski resort.

You have to go to a completely different country to find the nearest hill, let alone a mountain which is going to start driving up your costs. If you are limited by cash, why not instead write something where at least you don't have to leave the country to shoot it?

 

[ChimpPhobiaFilms]

Take advantage of the location you are in. Write a script that fits your location.

 

[rayw]

Take advantage of the location you are in. Write a script that fits your location.

+1!