editing avid or premiere?

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vvalverde

:huh: question? What do people think about Avid Xpress Pro Versus Abobe Premiere? I am thinking about getting either one (I have a PC) and have worked with both in the past, but not enough to know which I like better, is better, etc. If this makes a difference, I would be editing footage shot on a DVX100 and would like to use the program to edit small projects for other people. Basically to start myself as a small time freelance editor>

So what do you think? Thanx in advance. Always a pleasure hearing from your folks :D
 
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vvalverde said:
:huh: question? What do people think about Avid Xpress Pro Versus Abobe Premiere? I am thinking about getting either one (I have a PC) and have worked with both in the past, but not enough to know which I like better, is better, etc. If this makes a difference, I would be editing footage shot on a DVX100 and would like to use the program to edit small projects for other people. Basically to start myself as a small time freelance editor>

So what do you think? Thanx in advance. Always a pleasure hearing from your folks :D
Click to expand...
From personal experience:

For new users, start with Premiere. It has a simple "drag n drop" interface that you can master in a very short period of time.

Once Premiere is mastered, then move to Avid. It's much more advanced, but once you know Avid, you can basically write your own paycheck.
 
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I haven't used Avid Xpress, but Premiere would be good for editing small projects. You can always try using Avid Xpress Pro, if Premiere doesn't work for you. You can also just use both, until you decide which you like more.
 
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This is like asking "which is better - Picasso or DaVinci?" ((and if you want to throw Final Cut Pro in, add another artist))

All of the higher level editing programs do exactly the same thing & it's 100% preference, nothing more. Play around with all the programs & whichever one feels right to YOU is the one you should use.

Comparing these editing programs is like Picasso & DaVinci holding their paint brushes & arguing "My brush is better than yours! How can you paint with that thing?"
 
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Let's Compare Apples to Apples (No pun intended l ; )

sonnyboo said:
This is like asking "which is better - Picasso or DaVinci?" ((and if you want to throw Final Cut Pro in, add another artist))

All of the higher level editing programs do exactly the same thing & it's 100% preference, nothing more. Play around with all the programs & whichever one feels right to YOU is the one you should use.

Comparing these editing programs is like Picasso & DaVinci holding their paint brushes & arguing "My brush is better than yours! How can you paint with that thing?"
Click to expand...

Agreed, but the cost of some of the paint brushes are a bit different. With all due respect, Premiere cannot hold a candle to FCP in price, ease of use and straight up editing power, in my humble opinion. As far as AVID is concern, their price are a bit HIGH for the Indie filmmaker, nor do they really care at all about them. They are interested in jacking up prices and making $$$.

I was an AVID editor for 8 years and I saw what they did to the industry. Only when Apple released FCP and Media 100 hit the streets did they start to bring down their prices. The AVID is very good, powerful and for the most part fast (depends on your CPU), but as an Indie Filmmaker you will get MUCH more bang for you buck with Final Cut Pro.

Let's compare:

------------------------------------------

Apple's Final Cut Pro Production Suite

Final Cut Pro 5
Real-time editing for DV, SD, HD, and film.
Make videos and movies in any format with Final Cut Pro 5, a major upgrade to Apple's award-winning video editing application. It features powerful new multicamera editing, native HDV support, precision editing tools, scalable real-time effects processing, advanced real-time color correction and image manipulation filters and audio control surface support.
--------------
Soundtrack Pro
Precision audio editing. Powerful sound design.
Introducing Soundtrack Pro, Apple's revolutionary new audio editing and sound design application. Use action-based editing to creatively design new sounds, instantly repair imperfect location recordings, add perfect sound effects or musical Apple Loops, save hours bringing audio in and out of your video editor thanks to seamless integration with Final Cut Pro and more.
--------------
Motion 2 is Apple's award-winning professional motion graphics application offering breakthrough functionality and seamless workflow to artists, editors and independent producers. Whether you're animating broadcast graphics, corporate presentations, feature film titles, or DVD menus, you'll find an original, fresh toolset and new features such as GPU-accelerated rendering, amazing new filters and effects and more.
--------------
DVD Studio Pro 4
Redefining professional DVD authoring. Again.
Whether you produce demo reels, complex commercial titles or anything in between, DVD Studio Pro 4 offers simple, powerful tools for authoring DVDs. The latest upgrade introduces the next-generation of DVD delivery with HD DVD support for both H.264 and HDV and advanced authoring options like Alpha Transitions and multiple video and audio tracks.
--------------
Livetype 2 - Motion Graphics
Cinema Tools - Film Editor
Compressor 2 - Compression Software

$1299.00

http://www.apple.com/finalcutstudio/finalcutpro/

Nuff said.

-------------------------------

AVID EXPRESS PRO

Platform: PC & MAC Format: CD
Professional strength editing at an affordable price

Loaded with features and functionality, Avid Xpress Pro software lets users edit DV, mix resolutions in the timeline, and save space using the new 15:1s offline resolution. Editors can access 24 video and 24 audio tracks with unlimited layers, apply 2D and 3D OpenGL-based effects, edit true 23.976 media, trim and edit using JKL keys, and customize their workspaces. Built-in software "experts" such as AutoCorrect and NaturalMatch color correction, DV Scene Extraction, AutoSave, and ExpertRender let both new and experienced users focus on the creative process, not the technology. And with both Mac OS X and Windows XP software included in the same box so you are ready for the future, no matter what system you're using when you get there.

Professional Tools
Video, audio, film, effects, DVD authoring and encoding tools in one box
Scalable Real-time Hardware and Software Architecture
The most customizable effects and simultaneous streams in its class
Automatic Expert Color Correction
Innovative One-Step AutoCorrect improves an entire sequence in one click
Advanced Software Experts
Focus on the creative process with features like DV Scene Extraction
Powerful Film Support and High Quality Output
Supports 23.976 projects, multiple offline film resolutions, and the Panasonic AG-DVX100
Avid Compatible
The perfect, portable "companion product" for any Avid system user.

$1695.00

http://www.avidstore.com/index.cfm?...00-03675-01&manufacturerid=17&productid=55997

Note: You get ALL these features with FCP (and then some) and you already have HD or SD capabilities, no software upgrade needed (You will need to buy i/o card or box to input DIGIBETA or BETA SP 10-bit uncompressed video, ranging from $400 - $1995) but the G5 Macs have the power to handle that bitrate and there is no need to buy external hard drives, not true with AVID or Premiere).

All the tools are there. To get the same "real time" tools and features, you need to buy a AVID Mojo
(http://www.avidstore.com/index.cfm?...10-06812-01&manufacturerid=17&productid=58276) for another $1695 and that is just for Real time effects and out.

Bottomline: You get that an all of the above OUT OF THE BOX with FCP.

------------------------------

Adode Premiere Pro

The Adobe® Video Collection delivers a comprehensive toolset for Windows® based video production, providing the power and control you need to put your ideas in motion for film, video, DVD, or the Web. Choose the Standard edition and get Adobe Premiere® Pro, Adobe After Effects® Standard, Adobe Audition®, and Adobe Encore™ DVD software. For even more powerful features, get the Professional edition, which includes After Effects Professional and Adobe Photoshop® software.

http://www.adobe.com/products/dvcoll/overview.html

$1695.00

Very little hardware support, and costly at that. You need to purchase tons of extra hardware to do even the simplist DV short film (again completely depends on your PC). After Effects is powerful....very powerful and it's a good deal for that alone but Premiere's editing software, from this editor's humble opinion, is very much of a rip off of AVID and FCP. Not very user friendly, and it's work flow is a bit amaterish. Not powerful at all. There is a reason that there has been no major motion pictures edited with Premiere.

-------------------------------

Again, it is truly what you feel more editing confortable with and what magic you can create with that editing system, but all brushes are not equal when it comes to price and what you get for that price. Just my humble commentary ; )

Happy editing to all (with whatever software you use: AVID, Premiere, FCP, Vegas, Media 100, Edit, Smoke, Imovie, DV Free, Pinnacle, Matrox, Video Toaster, etc.) and may all your project be successful ones. :D

Alex
http://www.whatisbroken.com
http://www.enigmafactory.com
http://www.alexferrari.com
 
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Broken, you left out one very important cost associated with FCP, the cost of the Mac to run it on. So it's $1300 plus at least $2000. He already has a PC, which is an important consideration. Also, almost everything you're saying about Premiere Pro and hardware is totally inaccurate. You don't need any special hardware to run Premiere Pro. It works out of the box with DV, just like FCP. You can also get it for $700 on its own without the Suite.

Premiere is not without it's problems, however. I don't know exactly what that version of Avid supports, but for Premiere, I can tell you that you're probably going to run into quite a few problems with 24p support for the DVX. Premiere has a known bug dealing with fields and 24p, and there's nothing you can do to fix it. Adobe won't even admit to the problem. If you were doing anything except 24p, I'd highly recommend Premiere. But that was a huge problem for me and I ended up going with FCP because of it.
 
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Beeblebrox said:
Broken, you left out one very important cost associated with FCP, the cost of the Mac to run it on. So it's $1300 plus at least $2000. He already has a PC, which is an important consideration.

I don't know exactly what that version of Avid supports, but for Premiere, I can tell you that you're probably going to run into quite a few problems with 24p support for the DVX. Premiere has a known bug dealing with fields and 24p, and there's nothing you can do to fix it. Adobe won't even admit to the problem. If you were doing anything except 24p, I'd highly recommend Premiere. But that was a huge problem for me and I ended up going with FCP because of it.
Click to expand...

Okay, so let me get this straight. Since I am going to be dealing with 24p, Abobe should be out of the question. okay, but for argument sake, let say that I can get a MAC (not saying that, just want to know exactly what I am dealing with), is the concensus that FCP is the way to go?

thanx very much
 
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All things being equal, then I'd suggest FCP as a strong affordable NLE solution. If you can get a Mac.

If not, then you'd have to go with a version of Avid that supports 24p, and I don't know enough about Avids to recommend anything specific.

Also as an alternative and if you're on a budget, I'd highly recommend giving Vegas a shot. The problem there would be that it's not really an industry standard and might hurt you on getting freelance work.
 
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Beeblebrox said:
Broken, you left out one very important cost associated with FCP, the cost of the Mac to run it on. So it's $1300 plus at least $2000. He already has a PC, which is an important consideration. Also, almost everything you're saying about Premiere Pro and hardware is totally inaccurate. You don't need any special hardware to run Premiere Pro. It works out of the box with DV, just like FCP. You can also get it for $700 on its own without the Suite.

Premiere is not without it's problems, however. I don't know exactly what that version of Avid supports, but for Premiere, I can tell you that you're probably going to run into quite a few problems with 24p support for the DVX. Premiere has a known bug dealing with fields and 24p, and there's nothing you can do to fix it. Adobe won't even admit to the problem. If you were doing anything except 24p, I'd highly recommend Premiere. But that was a huge problem for me and I ended up going with FCP because of it.
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You are correct. You do need to get a mac but it's not $2000. A new Imac is $1299.00 and is more than powerful enough handle DV. Used ibook, older G4 CPUs. I have a G4 single 933 mhz at home and I have edited full features on it. You can find one of those for $300-$400 on ebay.

The hardware I was speaking of is if you computer, your PC doesn't have a Firewire card, you will need to by one. (Mac comes standard with everything you need to cut a DV movie, hell you can cut with imovie if you want. A feature film got into Sundance this year and he cut it one imovie. Not advised, but an opinion and imovie comes FREE with your mac)

Also, Panasonic has been working with Apple to make FCP the main NLE for all Panasonic Cameras. DVX and even 720p HD Varicam. It is as simple as plug and play. Not crap, no problems, FCP loves Panasonic and love 24p.

Premiere is only $700 for the Editing program ALONE but FCP is $999 and you get:

Final Cut Pro HD Editing Software
---------------------------------
Livetype 2 - Motion Graphics Package/Software Final Cut Pro 5 includes the all new LiveType 2, a full-featured professional titling application that allows you to create dynamic, animated titles quickly and easily.

Professional templates for NTSC, PAL, and now HD
New vector-based animated LiveFonts
Unicode support for both System and LiveFonts
New preset effects
Over 10GB of animated textures, fonts and objects
---------------------------------
Soundtrack Pro - Audio Editing Software (w/4 gigs of Sound effects, music, etc.) Final Cut Pro 5 features deep integration with Soundtrack Pro, Apple’s new professional sound design and audio editing application. With Soundtrack Pro, you get advanced tools to help you clean up audio trouble spots, add effects and perform final mixes on your projects.
---------------------------------
Compressor 2 - Final Cut Pro 5 includes Compressor 2 for automated batch encoding and hardware-quality format conversions. Use it to output QuickTime files in a variety of formats, or to prepare video for DVD Studio Pro using MPEG-2 for SD and the new H.264 for HD DVD delivery. Optical flow image analysis technology enables stunning format conversions between SD and HD, or NTSC and PAL.

Pristine scaling and encoding
Optical flow image analysis for hardware-quality format conversions.
Scale and encode HD to SD MPEG-2 in one step
SD <> HD and NTSC <> PAL format conversions
Two-pass variable bit rate (VBR) MPEG-2 encoding
Distributed encoding included with Final Cut Studio
---------------------------------
Cinema Tools - provides integrated tools for filmmakers:

35mm 3- and 4-perf, 16mm 20
Integrated film database
Synchronized with Final Cut Pro 5
Conforming and telecine tools
Generate accurate film lists

Again, definitly MUCH MORE BANG FOR YOUR BUCK. An if you learn FCP, there is a MUCH large Freelance pool that you can dip from and too. Much easier to find freelance as an FCP or AVID editor than Premiere.

Again good luck with you projects!! :D

Alex
http://www.whatisbroken.com
http://www.enigmfactory.com
http://www.alexferrari.com
 
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BROKEN2005 said:
The hardware I was speaking of is if you computer, your PC doesn't have a Firewire card, you will need to by one.
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So when you say that Premiere comes with "very little hardware support" and "costly at that" what you really mean is a $20 firewire card, presuming he doesn't have one already.

With FCP he would need to spend AT LEAST an additional $300-400 for hardware on the low end and upwards of $2000 for any serious power. With the PC, he would need to spend an additional $20 for hardware, if he doesn't already have a firewire card.

Look, I'm a user/fan of FCP but that doesn't mean I'm going to shovle this guy a bunch of malarky that isn't true. If he wanted a Mac press release, he could go to apple.com and get one.


Again, definitly MUCH MORE BANG FOR YOUR BUCK. An if you learn FCP, there is a MUCH large Freelance pool that you can dip from and too. Much easier to find freelance as an FCP or AVID editor than Premiere.
Click to expand...

Agreed. Using industry standards is a very important consideration, especially if your goal is seeking freelance work.

But if he's unwilling to buy a Mac, that cuts out FCP, in which case I'd go with either a version of Avid that supports 24p or possibly Vegas.
 
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Beeblebrox said:
So when you say that Premiere comes with "very little hardware support" and "costly at that" what you really mean is a $20 firewire card, presuming he doesn't have one already.

With FCP he would need to spend AT LEAST an additional $300-400 for hardware on the low end and upwards of $2000 for any serious power. With the PC, he would need to spend an additional $20 for hardware, if he doesn't already have a firewire card.

Look, I'm a user/fan of FCP but that doesn't mean I'm going to shovle this guy a bunch of malarky that isn't true. If he wanted a Mac press release, he could go to apple.com and get one.




Agreed. Using industry standards is a very important consideration, especially if your goal is seeking freelance work.

But if he's unwilling to buy a Mac, that cuts out FCP, in which case I'd go with either a version of Avid that supports 24p or possibly Vegas.
Click to expand...

Listen, if you are looking for a NLE, Final Cut Pro is the best thing on the market...period! You get more bang for your buck. No compition! If you do not want and can't buy a mac then AVID is probably your next best opinion.

What you are not see is that I am show all the cool stuff you can get with FCP for a really affordable price. If you have a PC then find something that works well with what you got. That is a no brainer. But if you want to invest in a good NLE and start from scratch, FCP is the way to go.

Everything that was written above is TRUE and not "bunch of malarky." The little hardware support is also in reference to 3rd party companies with support for SD or HD. Premiere is trying but is is not there yet. FCP is HD ready out of the box (with the proper hardware support) Premiere can't say that, and neither can Vegas or AVID Express. These guys do not have a lot of scability if you ever want to have more than a DV editing system one day. FCP allows you to grow at your pace and at the pace of your wallet.

An opinon was asked for and one was given. Again, this is my opinon and that is all. Wish you all again the best of luck and whatever program you use, do something cool and new. Shock us all!! ; )

Good Luck!
Alex
http://www.whatisbroken.com
 
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BROKEN2005 said:
Listen, if you are looking for a NLE, Final Cut Pro is the best thing on the market...period! You get more bang for your buck. No compition! If you do not want and can't buy a mac then AVID is probably your next best opinion.
Click to expand...

I agree, so why is it necessary to regurgitate Apple press releases about FCP while seriously distorting the requirements for Premiere? Premiere runs out of the box, just like FCP. He can edit DVX footage all day long on his current PC provided he already has a firewire port. If not, he can pick one up for $20.

What he may have problems with is 24p support, which is a serious and legitimate problem. The "very little hardware support" isn't. And to get the 24p support, he can either get Vegas, which is cheaper than all of them, or he can weigh between getting Avid on the PC or a Mac w/ FCP. That really just depends on how willing he is to move to the Mac platform.

And if and when he gets to HD, he's very likely dealing with a whole new ballgame of hardware AND software at that point and he can ask again. But in terms of HD support, Premiere does support HDV but not DVCPro HD, which FCP does support. I'm sure, however, that will change and that Premiere will have added DVCPro support by the time he gets around to needing it. By then, he may be in a position to move to the Mac platform and an FCP system.
 
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Have anyone thought of Vegas, it's cheaper and it's really coming along a long way for indie filmmaker :)

Personally, for me, if i have mac, I use FCP, if I have PC, I would use Premiere Pro 1.5 (the adobe collection). and that's that, why, I've been a premiere user since 4.0 and I am just too slow to learn something new and I'm acostumed to the way the new Premiere Pro 1.5 plus since I constantly upgrade my computer, I know what I need to run it decently enough for DV Editing

Case in point, right now I have 3 Pentium 4, 3ghz, HT, each with 1Gig of Ram, and each with a double layer dvd burner, 3 hard drives (C Drive for program, 40gig, E drive for preview files- 80gig, and F drive for video clips 120gig), with a Firewire port, 17" a monitor and a regular rca external video monitor) all put together for less than $1000 for the hardware ($350 - cpu/memory, $200 for hard drives, rest for case/monitor/keyboard/mouse/firewire). And guess what, it runs smoothly without a glitch. Recently just got two Sony DSR-20 VTRs for my 2 computers, can I do what FCP does? Hell yeah, so does it make me wanting to get a mac? no ;)

But I do want to find out more about Sony's Vegas since it does supposed to work better with 24p at this time I am not sure. I do know Premiere Pro doesn't do well with 24p and I am not worrying too much about 24p, simple, the really 'need' for it is if I need to output to film prints. For anyting else, color correct, adjust to have that 'film look' can be achieved with good lighting, good material, good environment, good camera work, and color correction.

In fact, A Joker's Card footage is a mix of digital and 16mm film (spent less than $6000) and you CAN'T tell which is which, because of it's color correction during post. Now if you compare the entire piece with the latest film stock (I believe those Vision 2 ones), you would think they really look the same (case in point: Jackie Chan's latest film New Police Story, really shot in 35mm but it soo digitally looked that it's incredibly sharp - SonnyBoo saw it too).

So, it's not about the equipment, pick one you are most comfortable with and with all the 'bell and whistles' you wishes to have, then work and learn and master it. With it you can don wonders.

Wasn't one of the Sundance film that won award was make with imovie? :) So, stop arguing who's truck is bigger than who's and use the tools you've given to make some magic! :)

Johnny Wu
 
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mdfilm, I mentioned Vegas a couple of times. I really like it, it's a very solid NLE. My one hesitation would be that it's not really a widely used program compared to the big three, and if he's looking to do freelance work, then Vegas might be a hinderance.

Other than that, it's definitely worth a look.
 
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As much as I hate avid I love it for the love of money. unfortunately you can do more work professionally with Avid than you can with premiere because it's just the Nike of the industry so to speak. I think it's a shame really because premiere - and now with Premiere 1.5 dealing with HDV - is really not that bad at all. The only problem with it is that it's less stable than Avid.
In relation to low end editing and the question Avid Xpress v Premiere - go premiere any day. The only reason Avid would be any use is for stuff at the high end... and If you're comparing the two here then Premiere is the choice. It's just easy to use. Alot of avid is still based around the old cut and splice for film and has so many roundabouts instead of crossroads you end up sick and giddy after using it.
Meh!
 
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On the low end of things, it may be worth looking at Sony's Vegas Movie Studio as an editing tool. It's a slightly crippled version of their full Vegas editor (limited numbers of tracks and some other limitations) and it quite usable.

I bought the complete set - Vegas Movie Studio + DVD Architect Studio, Acid Music Studio and Sound Forge Audio Studio direct from Sony. It looks like they're still running the special - the whole suite for $199.
 
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BROKEN2005 said:
With all due respect, Premiere cannot hold a candle to FCP in price, ease of use and straight up editing power, in my humble opinion. As far as AVID is concern, their price are a bit HIGH for the Indie filmmaker
------------------------------

Adode Premiere Pro

Very little hardware support, and costly at that. You need to purchase tons of extra hardware to do even the simplist DV short film (again completely depends on your PC). After Effects is powerful....very powerful and it's a good deal for that alone but Premiere's editing software, from this editor's humble opinion, is very much of a rip off of AVID and FCP. Not very user friendly, and it's work flow is a bit amaterish. Not powerful at all. There is a reason that there has been no major motion pictures edited with Premiere.

-------------------------------
Click to expand...

A WHOLE lotta innaccuracies in here.

#1. Avid Xpress DV is only $495, which is a real boon to Indie Filmmakers. This handles most application that a low to no budget filmmaker can need and more.... and I freakin' dislike Avid, but let's not paint an untruth.

#2. Adobe Premiere Pro does not do hardware support because they don't sell hardware at all. Any OHCI Compliant IEEE1394 Firewire card (from any brand, from any country ranging from $10-129) will work with Adobe Premiere with no problems. Having edited 2 feature films, and over 100 short films professionally with Adobe Premiere versions 5.0- Pro 1.5, it is WHOLLY INNACCURATE to say that it can't handle it. I have never had to use any special hardware to make Adobe Premiere work at any time. These seem like statements from an Apple sales rep who's never used the program. I've had no trouble with my 24p support for DVX100A footage...


Also ADS PYRO bundles Adobe Premiere Pro 1.5, Adobe Encore DVD 1.5, and Adobe Audition 1.5 together with a Firewire card and cable for $499 - so there ain't nuthin' a Mac has to compare price-wise to that. NOTHING. This will work on a Pentium III or better with Windows XP.



Again, Final Cut Pro is an excellent tool, but it is NOT better than Avid, Premiere, Vegas Video, or anything else in the prosumer arena of editing software. To say it is "better" is solely a matter of opinion.
 
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sonnyboo said:
I have never had to use any special hardware to make Adobe Premiere work at any time. These seem like statements from an Apple sales rep who's never used the program. I've had no trouble with my 24p support for DVX100A footage....
Click to expand...

I agree with you about his gross inaccuracies in re: Premiere Pro. I prefer FCP myself, but that doesn't mean I'm going to spread around a bunch of bunk about Premiere.

But I do find it interesting that you've had no problems with 24p support. It seems like it affects some people and not others, but I know I'm not the only one who has this problem.

It appears that what happens is the fields get out of phase somehow and there's no way to fix it. Any idea what could be going on there?
 
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