Audio Newbie Sound Help!!! please

DJConstable · Mar 1, 2012

Hi, this past month I have been going crazy on what audio stuff I should buy for my camera. I am currently using a Nikon D5000 (I know its rubbish) until I get my new camera (Canon EOS 60D or 7D). I know I can't use a Rode VideoMic Pro direct for the Nikon D5000 cam as it has no headphone jack to plug it directly into. Could I use an external recorder such as a Tascam dr-40 and plug a Rode VideoMic pro straight into the Tascam for better audio to use with my D5000? Or would I require anything extra like cables for both of them to work together? I have seen people use a Rode VideoMic plugged into a Zoom H1 all over YouTube, but never any other combo's. Plus is the Tascam dr-40 good enough to use to capture audio without the Rode VideoMic Pro?

I am very very new to audio (as you can tell) and I am only picking up on what I read online so any help you can give will be amazing and everything will taken on board. If you have any suggestions on what I should use then please feel free. I need something for recording street singing, Poets and up and coming lyricists around London. All performances will be done on the spot so I won’t be recording from speakers or anything. Everything I will be doing is LIVE and of artists on the street. I would only be around 3-5 feet max away, maybe even less.

Could you please please help me and tell me what my best bet would be

Basically what I am asking is…what would you do to monitor your sound without it going into the camera? enough so I get a decent sound.

thank you

Alcove Audio · Mar 1, 2012

Yes, you can use a cheap recorder like the H1, DR-08, PR-10, etc. They will all work with the 3.5mm minipin of the VideoMic and you can monitor with headphones. The DR-40 at least will take low impedance (XLR) mics so you at least have a little upward compatability.

I'm assuming that you are going camera mounted. That is your biggest audio problem. The camera is not always - strike that - the camera is almost never in the optimum position to capture good audio. And "around 3-5 feet max" is a huge distance in audio terms; optimum is 18" or less.

The Inverse Square Law

In simple terms, this means that a sound twice as far away is only one-fourth as loud. A sound four times as far away is only one-sixteenth as loud. So a human voice that records with adequate volume three feet away is just one-sixteenth as effective at twelve fee

DJConstable · Mar 2, 2012

Thanks for the input Alcove Audio

... I was planning to mount the mic of top of the camera yes. If it’s better I will just have the mic on a tripod in front of the talent just out of view. I said 3-5 feet as just an ultimate, maximum distance I would be away. Do you think the VideoMic Pro would do a decent job plugged into the Zoom H1? Or better using with the Tascam dr-40? It's not really a money issue, it’s more about is it worth spending that extra to monitor audio?

I have no shops nearby that even sell any of these products so I can’t even test them out. I really just wanted to use a Tascam mounted with a windshield, but that seems a pretty stupid idea as I don't know how it would sound.

If it was up to you...what would you do in my shoes? (sorry about all the questions)

IndieBudget · Mar 2, 2012

You will need a shotgun Mic on a boom pole with a skilled operator OR Lav mics directly on the talent is what is going to start getting good sound. Plan on sub par sound if you are not doing one or the other is my opinion.

DJConstable · Mar 2, 2012

Hi, Thanks IndieBudget...im posting a quick video of someone I know who recorded this. He just uses a Rode video mic mounted on his cam...I know most people will just cringe watching the video and say how poor it is. I am not looking for the greatest sound but at least cleaner then this. I am posting the video so you get an idea of what I will be recording and filming

thanks for all the support guys...I do take everything on board believe me

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EB93fA119YY&feature=relmfu

rocksure · Mar 2, 2012

I think a good thing for you to do is find good articles to read, and tutorial type videos to watch to best understand your needs for capturing good audio. Read stuff the Alcove has written throughout this forum, or the tutorial article I have written here: http://rocksuresoundz.com/2011/10/11/the-importance-of-getting-good-audio/
Try to come to terms with the ideas of what gear you need and why, then do some research on the pieces of gear you are considering, and make judgements on what to buy once you have done your research. This is a better approach than knee jerk decisions when buying gear based on a couple of opinions.

DJConstable · Mar 3, 2012

Everyone has different opinions when it comes to buying audio stuff...like i said before I have looked at so many videos on youtube and been reading so much stuff about the products...it would be nice if any of the shops near me sold the mics or recorders but they dont. I can only go by what is "good" by what people have given reviews to. As I will be doing the recordings myself and all the videos will be uploaded to youtube.

I just really wanted to know if plugging a Rode VideoMic pro into a zoom H1 or tascam dr-40 will give me better audio than the mic alone. Plus what are the benefits of using the tascam dr-40 with a Rode VideoMic pro over the Zoom H1.

Alcove Audio · Mar 3, 2012

DSLR and camcorder audio implementation is terrible, especially DSLRs; their focus, if you'll pardon the pun, is to capture solid picture, not sound.

I absolutely cringe when indie filmmakers skimp on the sound. Yes, I may have my bias as a sound guy, but your project will only look as good as it sounds because "Sound is half of the experience." An audience will forgive mediocre visuals if the sound is solid, but they will never forgive bad sound. Poor sound pulls the audience out of the illusion which the filmmaker is attempting to create; the audience wants to sit back and enjoy, not have to struggle to hear what is being said or be distracted by artificial noise. From a technical standpoint bad sound is one of the first reasons films are not accepted into festivals, no matter how pretty the pictures.

Sound should be given the same amount of attention as the visuals. Visuals give a lot of information, but the dialog conveys most of the emotion. There should be someone on the set whose job is sound and nothing but sound, preferably someone who knows what they're doing; it's nowhere near as simple as sticking a mic somewhere in the general vicinity of the actors. A great boom-op is worth his/her weight in gold.

Sound is what I do for a living, and my personal preference is, of course, to buy the best gear out there. I understand that finances are severely limited in the low/no/mini/micro budget indie filmmaking world. And trust me, no matter how much people protest that they will do everything possible on the set to capture good sound the production audio is always the first thing to go when they are falling behind schedule. So my first recommendation is to retain a professional; my second is to work with an up-and-coming boom-op/production sound mixer. These folks will already have all the gear that is needed (well, at least the basics) and will know how to use it. If you are dead set on DIY you should spend at least the same amount of time learning about sound as you did learning about cinematography. Yes, it's a lot of work, but the results are more than worth it. Ask any of the more experienced folks here at IndieTalk and they will tell you that they have learned that lesson and learned it well.

So, on to the nuts and bolts...

As I mentioned in my previous post:

Yes, you can use a cheap recorder like the H1, DR-08, PR-10, etc. They will all work with the 3.5mm minipin of the VideoMic and you can monitor with headphones. The DR-40 at least will take low impedance (XLR) mics so you at least have a little upward compatability.

As far as quality they are all pretty much the same, but none of them are geared towards doing production sound. I do lean towards budget level Tascam products mostly because the build is more robust than similar units in the same price range from other manufacturers, and Tascam has decades behind it of making good products. The DR-100, which is probably out of your price range anyway, at least has volume knobs that can be used in real time, no futzing around with menus to adjust the volume on the fly. A "real" entry level production sound recorder would be the PMD-661, FR-2LE or the HD-P2. The same goes for the VideoMic; it's very nice consumer product, but does not qualify as a real production sound mic. On the plus side, it is forgiving to audio first timers with its wide pick-up pattern.

DJConstable · Mar 3, 2012

Thanks for all the help Alcove Audio

as I will be doing street recordings the background noises will be fine as I don’t really want to eliminate all of them. As I am just starting all of my stuff is a one man job kinda thing for now.

Back to the devices…as a newbie asking you what I should get would be silly as you are a pro with sound. So as an entry device, does the Tascam dr-40 have any advantages over the Zoom H1 at monitoring sound with a shot gun mic (Rode VideoMic Pro)? I know I have a lot of mics to choose from, but the Rode seems good for beginners. So would it be pointless of me to use a dr-40 with a Rode VideoMic Pro as the dr-40 has XLR input whereas the Rode VideoMic Pro is 3.5.

im sorry about my lack of knowledge. I am just trying to ask you professional guys a bit so i can learn

Alcove Audio · Mar 3, 2012

DJConstable said:
does the Tascam dr-40 have any advantages over the Zoom H1 at monitoring sound with a shot gun mic (Rode VideoMic Pro)?

I will repeat ONE MORE TIME:

Yes, you can use a cheap recorder like the H1, DR-08, PR-10, etc. They will all work with the 3.5mm minipin of the VideoMic and you can monitor with headphones. The DR-40 at least will take low impedance (XLR) mics so you at least have a little upward compatability.

As far as quality they are all pretty much the same, but none of them are geared towards doing production sound. I do lean towards budget level Tascam products mostly because the build is more robust than similar units in the same price range from other manufacturers, and Tascam has decades behind it of making good products.

BTW, the VMP is not a true shotgun mic.

SimuelStudios · Feb 18, 2013

DJConstable said:
Hi, this past month I have been going crazy on what audio stuff I should buy for my camera. I am currently using a Nikon D5000 (I know its rubbish) until I get my new camera (Canon EOS 60D or 7D). I know I can't use a Rode VideoMic Pro direct for the Nikon D5000 cam as it has no headphone jack to plug it directly into. Could I use an external recorder such as a Tascam dr-40 and plug a Rode VideoMic pro straight into the Tascam for better audio to use with my D5000? Or would I require anything extra like cables for both of them to work together? I have seen people use a Rode VideoMic plugged into a Zoom H1 all over YouTube, but never any other combo's. Plus is the Tascam dr-40 good enough to use to capture audio without the Rode VideoMic Pro?

I am very very new to audio (as you can tell) and I am only picking up on what I read online so any help you can give will be amazing and everything will taken on board. If you have any suggestions on what I should use then please feel free. I need something for recording street singing, Poets and up and coming lyricists around London. All performances will be done on the spot so I won’t be recording from speakers or anything. Everything I will be doing is LIVE and of artists on the street. I would only be around 3-5 feet max away, maybe even less.

Could you please please help me and tell me what my best bet would be

Basically what I am asking is…what would you do to monitor your sound without it going into the camera? enough so I get a decent sound.

thank you

First of all let me say that I 1000% agree with all the statements about doing research, learning the craft so you know why you are using the equipment you are using.

That said, sometimes it's just nice to have the answer. Here are my thoughts.

In my professional opinion I would simply say, use the Tascam DR-40, that will NOT be a bad purchase for now or in the future when you actually know what you are doing.
DO NOT think you are going to just plug sound from this or any other unit into a 60D Canon camera, the camera does not have professional pre-amps enough to allow that to work. So just use the DR-40 to capture your audio and sync to your video. Lookup 'synchronizing audio with video.'
DO buy a shotgun Mic. Whatever fits your budget that runs by phantom power and has an XLR connection. If it has those two attributes it will probably work for you well enough for now. I suggest "Sennheiser" if you can afford it, or "Audio Technica" for the lower budget.
OR as mentioned by one of the previous comments, buy a Lavalier MIC (again Sennheiser if you can afford it) and attach to the talent. This will also give you great audio for interviews and such.
Either boom or Lav will work. Boom must be held as close as it can be to the talent without getting in the shot. (Lookup boom placement and "on mic vs off mic" on google.)

To reiterate what was mentioned before though, SOUND IS HALF THE PRODUCT. Bad Audio, forget the project, it will still look amateur if your audio is bad. Hope that helps!

Chrisk · Feb 26, 2013

If you are shooting poets and lyricists I would say sound is your key medium, don't skimp on it. If you can't comfortably make out the words of a poem what is the use of the picture?
Personally I think it would look kinda cute if you put up a huge dirty studio or stage mic right in front of the performer, making the streets their stage. It would solve your audio woes and make a visual message.
Failing that the 1st choice would be to boom (don't forget adequate wind-protection, don't care if the weather says no wind, mics are designed to pick up pressure waves from a small stretch of flesh vibrating often a few feet away, imagine the pressure front of even the slightest breeze in comparison).
You may well get away with a popular ENG technique where the mic is placed on a low stand just out of shot pointing up to the subject. Only really works with mid shot or tighter. Of course lavs are an option but if the performer is also playing an instrument you may need a bit of messing around or a separate mic for the instrument. Lavs tend to be omni and pick up ambience from all around but the hope is in a much lower ratio than the voice which is so close. The ambience captured will also sound more natural due to them being omni. Lavs will also need wind protection and if you don't want them in shot you are, in the words of Walter from The Big Lebrowski, entering a whole new world of pain. :lol:

As for gear I would suggest a field recorder with XLR inputs and the best shotgun you can afford (with proper wind kit and mounting kit). With the appropriate Canon DSLR and magic lantern you can overcome many audio barriers such as manual recording level, headphone monitoring using a USB adaptor and even a kind of balanced input. Far cheaper than getting a field recorder but of course also far inferior.
The problem with the rode video mic, not being balanced, is it is designed to sit atop the camera, as you move away you raise the risks of interference and signal degradtion.