Audio for the budget minded

Had an idea for low cost audio.

I know the consensus is for a Zoom or Tascam style digital recorder, but I was thinking about another route.

What about using individual voice recorders?

I found a this one on ebay:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/4GB-Digital..._Recorders&hash=item4160f993ab#ht_3777wt_1269

but there were thousands more to choose from.

I'm going to order one of these types of recorders and see how it sounds. If the lavalier is decent, I can get a couple more to hide on my principal actors in the shot and cull my sound that way.

Even at $28 including the shipping, 3 of these is less than a third of the cost of one of the Zoom recorders...

Any thoughts? Anyone tried this before?
 
Disregard the cost, what about the functionality? Can you monitor the audio while you are recording it? Does it record, at a minimum, 16bit/48kHz uncompressed audio? Does it have USB or firewire for easy data transfer?

And a "decent" lav is around $150 to $300; are you sure you want to match up a nice lav with a cheap recorder? Oh, BTW, you'll probably spend $50 to $75 each on adapters and phantom power to get the lavs to work properly with the cheap recorder.

And what about frequency range? Does it take in 80Hz to 20kHz?
 
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i've tried a voice recorder once, and they're terrible and unusable. Their field is waaay too wide to get out anything good for a movie.

I thought about that. But can't you tweak the EQ in post to narrow the field?

Disregard the cost, what about the functionality?

If cost wasn't an issue, I could buy whatever I wanted. I'm thinking about something that could be used by filmmakers with very little budget. I already have some very adequate sound equipment, I'm just trying to come up with new ideas...

Can you monitor the audio while you are recording it? Does it record, at a minimum, 16bit/48kHz uncompressed audio? Does it have USB or firewire for easy data transfer?

As far as monitoring, you can monitor it as easily as you could one of the Zooms if it were on the end of a boom. I would think you would have to try different settings before you get on set to see which ones will work the best. Then do some quick on set sound tests before you shoot, listening to the play back thru headphones to see where your levels are.

As far bit rates, it would depend on what recorder you bought. The one I ended up ordering to try out records in mp3 and WAV formats, and has parameters that you can adjust within those formats. (I didn't, BTW, order the one I linked above...)

It transfers files via USB.

And a "decent" lav is around $150 to $300; are you sure you want to match up a nice lav with a cheap recorder? Oh, BTW, you'll probably spend $50 to $75 each on adapters and phantom power to get the lavs to work properly with the cheap recorder.

I think "decent" needs to stay a subjective term when you're talking about being budget conscious. Yes, I've found several lav mics that are 3 times the price of the recorder, but I've also listened to some inexpensive ones that aren't phantom powered that have an acceptable sound quality to cost ratio. Do they have the sound quality of a $200 lav? No. But they have the ability to record better sound than the built in mic I have on my camcorder. And that can be a huge step in the right direction and get some first time filmmakers on the road to better sound without having to spend a bunch of money.

And what about frequency range? Does it take in 80Hz to 20kHz?

According to the specs, recording in mp3 format at 192kbps (stereo) the range is 70 Hz to 19 kHz.

Again, this is just an idea. It may work, it may fail horribly. But $30 isn't a huge amount of money to try something new that may help some filmmakers out there with sound issues.
 
I thought about that. But can't you tweak the EQ in post to narrow the field?

He means that the mics pick-up field is very wide, not the frequency range.

If cost wasn't an issue, I could buy whatever I wanted. I'm thinking about something that could be used by filmmakers with very little budget. I already have some very adequate sound equipment, I'm just trying to come up with new ideas...

I agree with finding ideas that work on a micro-budget. But I didn't say that cost was not an issue. I said to disregard the price and focus on the capabilities of the unit you are considering as a purchase. For instance, you can get a PalmTrack for $60 that sports 24/48 uncompressed WAV format or a DR-08for $70 capable of 24/96, etc. and you may be able to get them cheaper on eBay or Amazon.

As far as monitoring, you can monitor it as easily as you could one of the Zooms if it were on the end of a boom.

Actually, you can run a cable from the recorder down the boom-pole to a pair of headphones. That's not an option if you put the recorder in the actors pocket.


I would think you would have to try different settings before you get on set to see which ones will work the best. Then do some quick on set sound tests before you shoot, listening to the play back thru headphones to see where your levels are.

The problem is that, no matter how hard you try, the intensity of the actors is different when they know the camera is rolling. And, BTW, no one is ever going to "waste time" fooling around with sound gear on the set. And it doesn't matter if you do, it's everyone else we're talking about, right?

According to the specs, recording in mp3 format at 192kbps (stereo) the range is 70 Hz to 19 kHz.

MP3 is still a compressed audio format.



Look, I'm not disagreeing with what you want to accomplish, but, speaking from 35+ years of audio experience, and 10 years in sound-for-picture, trying to get away cheap ends up sounding, well, cheap, unless you have a very solid understanding of how audio really works. This is knowledge that most fledgling filmmakers lack. Most consumer audio products are high impedance. This isn't a big deal with a stereo, or an MP3 player, but it is a very big deal when working on a film set; the odds are quite high that you will run into RF or other interference problems.

As you've probably read from me before, your project will only look as good as it sounds because "Sound is half of the experience." The biggest problem small budget projects have is that, no matter how much the audience and filmmakers protest otherwise, low/no/mini/micro-budget projects are competing with multi-mega-million dollar Hollywood blockbusters. And the first place indie types tend to skimp is on audio, yet audio is one of the hardest aspects of filmmaking to get right, mostly because you can't see it, and filmmakers tend to be very visually oriented.

People never notice audio - unless it's bad or missing.
 
He means that the mics pick-up field is very wide, not the frequency range.
Gotcha. I guess since I'll be using an external mic, it will depend on its field pattern as to how much ambient noise I get.

As for the rest, I can't say that I disagree with anything you say. I don't have that much experience with film audio, because like I said, what I use for audio equipment has done well for me and I haven't had the need to experiment.

But I've been a musician for 25 or so years and have built my own amplifiers for the past ten. The one thing I can say I've learned is that you never know where you might find something that works better than expected. Of course, that's with guitar amplifiers where hi-fidelity isn't the overall goal.

Never the less, I have the thing ordered, so I'll try it out and post results. If it fails, you told me so and I'll be out $30. But if someone likes what they hear, maybe it will give them an alternative that will work until they can afford something better.
 
LasVegasIRA - Below is my ELCheapo Deluxe sound setup using budget audio tools including a pocket digital recorder. Which only records 16bit / 41,000 .WMA. I know the Lav & the Shotgun sound different because I have not yet figured out how to properly edit them in post, hopefully, I'll learn.

I truly see the Logic behind Alcove and others on sound. If you start w/ limited crap, you can only polish it up so much in post. If getting good clean dialog is important ( Duuuuuuh ?!! ) , then it is best to do it right and give it all you have in production, not post. It is much easier to get it right from the start than to try and fix a mess later.

But here is what I have been playing with annyhoo....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8PXrZX8Pg24
 
Funnily enough, Indie, the Olympia VN-8100PC you use in the video is the exact recorder I ordered...

Personally, I didn't think the AT lav mic sounded that bad at all. Is it great sounding? No, but like I said when you have the choice between the sound you get from the camera mic and something like this that will get you usable audio for $50 (cost of the recorder and a lav mic similar to the ATR 3350) I think it's a viable option.

And you're right, Alcove, when you say that no one wants to spend extra time fixing audio in post. But knowing that there are things you can do to improve the sound you would get from a set up like this, some people would rather spend the extra time than the extra money...
 
Nice comparisons of those mics!

The voice recorders will do OK for voice, but it will lose alot of the "Room" due to the fact that those recorders do a high and low cut to get just the MAIN parts of the vocal frequency range. This allows for longer recording times due to smaller amounts of data being compressed by the wav/mp3 formats.

That said, they'll get dialog into your production.. and as the video shows, better than the on camera mic. Yes, you'll upgrade in not too long, but it'll do for now. I ran with the predecessor to that shotgun mic for quite some time before deciding to throw down $400 on a better boom pole / better shotgun mic. The difference was REALLY apparent!
 
If you're shooting short scenes for uploading to your youtube account then this may well work, you should be able to get better audio than the on camera mic. You could even save more money and just ask all your actors to use a voice recording app on their phones, most accept cheap plug in mics. Shoot on your phone and and save some more money there and the quality will be uniform.
Just make sure there is manual record level and bare in mind you will have to manually line up audio. If you are thinking to run multiple recorders that's multiple lining up.

Just don't expect anything other than third rate sound.

Actually I quite like the idea of shooting on a phone and taking audio on other phones in the talent's top pocket, could well be the future of no budget youtube clips.
 
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