Audio alternative?

Kosh

Kosh

Hi, audio gurus.

Question - I have seen a few threads, posts and recommendations on here for Tascam and Zoom audio recording systems. How about a good old laptop? I have a Lexicon Alpha - it has one XLR port and a few line (in and out) ports. I was planning on upgrading and going with the next model (not sure what it is off the top of my head), which has more than one XLR port. So, is this a good option for capturing sound (dialog and/or ambient) outside of the camera? Is a setup like this just as good as a Tascam or a Zoom unit? Is this a better or worse alternative? Thank you.
 
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I'm not an audio guru but I think one of the major problems you're going to face is portability. The good thing about these smaller audio recorders is that they can fit in a fanny pack (is that what you American's call it?) along with a mixer and/or whatever. It's difficult to achieve that level of mobility if you're always connected to a laptop.

There may be other reasons that the audio gurus can furnish you with ;)
 
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Thanks, Nick. Fanny pack, priceless, and yes that is what we call it.

I know it could be a problem for documentary and run-and-gun type scenarios, but I was thinking along the lines of narratives - where I have the location scouted and it is mine for a certain period of time. I have long XLR cables - 50, 25, a few 10 and some 6 footers. So I was wondering what the advantages would be in a controlled type of environment.

Thanks for the feedback.
 
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It's all a question of budget and situation. Laptops are used for recording audio on movie sets all the time using softwares like Boom Recorder. However, on big budget sets where redundancies/safeties are the name of the game, they are used in conjunction with highly portable hardware recorders; the audio from the mixer routed to both. You also have to consider the fact that there will be a boom-op and a production sound mixer, and most probably an audio assistant as well.

If you are a one guy/gal production sound crew a laptop is going to be difficult to use; you can't hang a laptop around your neck while you are swinging a boom, and run'n'gun is the name of the game for indie filmmaking.

Okay, about the Lexicon Alpha; it's aimed at musicians; the S/N ratio of the mic pres would be quite noticeable when doing production sound. (For my ears the same applies to the H4n and DR-100.) And the name of the game for production sound is quiet preamps; it's bad enough having to deal with ambient noise without adding noise from the recording gear.

My current personal favorite field recorders are the Edirol R-4 and the Tascam HD-P2 with the Oade Brothers preamp mods. The Marantz PMD-661 is also nice. The Tascam DR-100 is marginally better than the H4n, the preamps are a bit smoother and the build is more solid.
 
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Thanks, Alcove for the info and for responding. I'll get one of the hand held devices, the laptop will always be there so maybe someday I will get to give it a go. Thanks again.
 
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chilipie said:
Not if you go into a line-in on a laptop, no, but most USB and Firewire audio interfaces can supply phantom power.
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Sure that will work, but now you've gone from cumbersome to REALLY cumbersome with the added component.

And another thing, XLR connectors give a much more robust and reliable connection between the mic and recording device. Bad audio connections are about the most common audio issue. Personally I think laptop is cool if shooting in a studio, but on location? not so much.
 
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brianluce said:
. Personally I think laptop is cool if shooting in a studio, but on location? not so much.
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As I mentioned, using laptops for production sound is standard practice - reread my previous post.

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Cumbersome depends on how you set things up, too. For a while I was doing very long format ambient electronic live performances (3 hours+). Rather than using the old MiniDisc that I usually recorded live shows on, I wanted to record on my laptop. So I took an old briefcase that could hold my laptop and my interface (EMU cardbus 1616, which is very very nice for the money), as well as a power strip. I cut a hole in the top so that I could run an extension cord in for power, as well as audio cables (I usually went straight off my mixer, but the interface has XLR with phantom if I was mic-ing). Less than five minutes to set it up and arm recording. Compare that to the time it takes to set up stands, mixers, effects, synths, instruments, etc, etc (or on a film shoot, lights, cameras, etc, etc)

Not a setup that I wanted to carry around, while actually recording, but quick to set up, and if you have someone to run sound, you can lift the top of the briefcase and fold open the laptop, to adjust/monitor (I had to put little rubber feet on the computer to keep the laptop from closing and going into sleep mode, but that was a combination of crappy laptop and me not trusting it). My interface also has soft limiters on the pres, which is nice if I totally screw up gain staging.

So, yeah. If you're moving around a lot, a portable recorder is necessary. If you aren't moving a lot and plan things ahead of time, a laptop can be great.
 
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This is an interesting question--and one that has occurred to me more than once.

I'm curious about something Alcove Audio said:

"Okay, about the Lexicon Alpha; it's aimed at musicians; the S/N ratio of the mic pres would be quite noticeable when doing production sound. (For my ears the same applies to the H4n and DR-100.) And the name of the game for production sound is quiet preamps; it's bad enough having to deal with ambient noise without adding noise from the recording gear."

Does this mean that recording with laptops might result in a lower-quality product? Or is this only for the Lexicon Alpha? Are there laptops that could record sound comparable to a dedicated sound recorder?
 
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When you use a laptop you will be using an audio interface to "translate" the audio into ones and zeros (unless you plug directly into the laptops mic input - a big no-no if you are doing sound for picture).

USB and firewire audio interfaces come in varying degrees of quality, just like anything else. When you are at the lower end of the price spectrum you have to assume that lower quality components will be used. Low quality mic preamp components tend to have a lot of self noise, mostly hiss. Low quality AD/DA (Analog to Digital/Digital to Analog) convertors, to my ears, have a "harsh" tonal quality to them.

Now, this is not to say that there are not budget pieces of gear that buck the trend. What indie filmmakers have to keep in mind is that many of these very inexpensive pieces of gear are aimed at musicians. Most musicians work at comparatively high volume levels and/or hot input levels. Someone singing 1/2" from a mic is a much, much hotter signal level than an actor speaking at a normal conversational level a foot and a half from a mic.

The Inverse Square Law

In simple terms, this means that a sound twice as far away is only one-fourth as loud. A sound four times as far away is only one-sixteenth as loud. So a human voice that records with adequate volume three feet away is just one-sixteenth as effective at twelve feet.

So a unit like the $60 Lexicon Alpha will have a fair amount of self noise that will not be noticed when the signal is hot and constant, but will be very noticeable when trying to record an intermittent from whisper 18" away. That is one of the reasons why professional sound gear is so pricey - very quiet preamps that impart little self noise, another reason are smooth AD/DA convertors. On top of that is the sturdy build needed to withstand 60+ hour weeks in varying climatic conditions, and better energy conservancy. Then you have to consider the ergonomics of the unit - the accessibility of the physical controls, and the "feel" of those controls. Another aspect to consider is that production sound folks want gear that will not color the sound, whereas there are numerous pieces of gear that are prized for their "color" in music recording applications.

The name of the game with audio gear is self noise and coloration; when doing sound for picture you want as little of both as possible. You wouldn't use a camera that is always slightly pixelated and a little green, would you?
 
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Alcove Audio said:
What indie filmmakers have to keep in mind is that many of these very inexpensive pieces of gear are aimed at musicians. Most musicians work at comparatively high volume levels and/or hot input levels. Someone singing 1/2" from a mic is a much, much hotter signal level than an actor speaking at a normal conversational level a foot and a half from a mic.
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I own a Tascam DR100 and when recording dialog have to keep the mic gain switch on HIGH and keep the pots dialed up pretty high too. Makes sense now why it's like that. I used to own a Zoom H4n and it was the same way and also, clearly, it was made to be musician friendly. For example, it has a built in metronome.
 
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