At what point does digital look better than film?

What I mean is format vs. format. Like 35mm vs. 1080p, most agree that 35mm recorded onto a 1080p disk, still looks better. Which is why a lot of movies are still shot on 35mm by preference.

But at what point does film recorded onto digital, look worse than digital? Is say 16mm recorded onto 1080p, still better than 1080p digital alone? What about Super 8? What about 16mm vs 480p? Sometimes I wonder if blue rays of old films less than 35mm are much of a difference, compared to SD DVDs.
 
Film will always look like 'film'. Digital currently looks like digital. Resolution-wise, the only time where you could argue that film will/does look 'worse' than digital is S8.

It's less about the format and more about the artistry in front of (and behind) the camera. A great DP can make 16mm look as good as 35mm
An average DP will make an Alexa look only marginally better than a DSLR.
 
Resolution wise it's pretty much there, but film still looks "better" to me. They do a lot of digital wizardry to make digital look more like film and that is getting better all the time as well. Still, the reason to shoot digital is cost and workflow.
 
If the Digital movie does a good enough job, you won't even be able to tell.

I certainly can't tell on anything shot with a Red camera
 
It's true that digital gets better all of the time but, I think that we as a society are becoming more used to the look and feel of digital. I was at the theater and the major studio movie that I saw (I forget which) was filmed on Red.
 
I believe H44 that history has already answered your question. You just have to look at the music industry, where this discussion (digital vs Analogue) started nearly 30 years ago. Nearly 20 years ago not only had digital recording technology surpassed (in every measurable way) Analogue recording but the cost of the equipment fell so much that it became available to the masses. It used to take many years to learn to be a good recording engineer, many years to learn to be a good mix engineer and many years to learn to become a good music producer but by the end of the 1990's a whole new generation started selling their "professional" services, doing all three jobs with just a few months of practise. The cost of music production eventually fell almost by infinity, as did the standards of production! However, a new generation of consumers embraced these lower standards because they appreciated (from personal experience) creating music in their bedrooms at little/no cost.

The effect on the professional music production industry has been catastrophic. There are less than a tenth of the big recording studios still in business from 20 years ago and almost none of those still operating actually make a profit. Along with the loss of these studios, the knowledge and skill required to create high quality productions is also being lost, maybe forever. From a business perspective, there's no sense in spending 1000 times more on the music production to get 1% more customers!

There is still a tiny hardcore niche of people who prefer vinyl recordings, falsely thinking they are better quaity. Vinyl is provably worse than digital but the quality of the music productions on the vinyl is frequently much higher, the same is true of the SACD digital format (which is also close to death). It's not the format which defines the quality, it's the time, expertise (and therefore budget) used to create the production. Isn't this also now true with the film industry? It's entirely likely in the future, that history will record the pinnacle of high quality music production to have occurred in the 1980's, even though today's technology allows for higher quality.

As the bottom has gradually fallen out of the market in the music business so, over the last few years, more and more have been looking at the TV and Film industries to make a living from audio. The vast majority not even realising TV/Film sound has different technical, artistic and skill/expertise requirements, let alone actually possessing those skills or expertise.

Unfortunately, the film industry appears to be roughly where the music industry was 15 or so years ago and to be following the same course. I sincerely hope that history is not about to repeat itself!!!

G
 
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I believe H44 that history has already answered your question. You just have to look at the music industry, where this discussion (digital vs Analogue) started nearly 30 years ago. Nearly 20 years ago not only had digital recording technology surpassed (in every measurable way) Analogue recording but the cost of the equipment fell so much that it became available to the masses. It used to take many years to learn to be a good recording engineer, many years to learn to be a good mix engineer and many years to learn to become a good music producer but by the end of the 1990's a whole new generation started selling their "professional" services, doing all three jobs with just a few months of practise. The cost of music production eventually fell almost by infinity, as did the standards of production! However, a new generation of consumers embraced these lower standards because they appreciated (from personal experience) creating music in their bedrooms at little/no cost.

The effect on the professional music production industry has been catastrophic. There are less than a tenth of the big recording studios still in business from 20 years ago and almost none of those still operating actually make a profit. Along with the loss of these studios, the knowledge and skill required to create high quality productions is also being lost, maybe forever. From a business perspective, there's no sense in spending 1000 times more on the music production to get 1% more customers!

There is still a tiny hardcore niche of people who prefer vinyl recordings, falsely thinking they are better quaity. Vinyl is provably worse than digital but the quality of the music productions on the vinyl is frequently much higher, the same is true of the SACD digital format (which is also close to death). It's not the format which defines the quality, it's the time, expertise (and therefore budget) used to create the production. Isn't this also now true with the film industry? It's entirely likely in the future, that history will record the pinnacle of high quality music production to have occurred in the 1980's, even though today's technology allows for higher quality.

As the bottom has gradually fallen out of the market in the music business so, over the last few years, more and more have been looking at the TV and Film industries to make a living from audio. The vast majority not even realising TV/Film sound has different technical, artistic and skill/expertise requirements, let alone actually possessing those skills or expertise.

Unfortunately, the film industry appears to be roughly where the music industry was 15 or so years ago and to be following the same course. I sincerely hope that history is not about to repeat itself!!!

G

YouTube.

The cycle continues...
 
Unfortunately, the film industry appears to be roughly where the music industry was 15 or so years ago and to be following the same course. I sincerely hope that history is not about to repeat itself!!!

The one thing I'd say is different is that film is still of much higher resolution, quality and latitude than digital in general, whereas with music/audio digital quickly surpassed 'analogue' in quality, or at least caught up to par with analogue very quickly.
Unfortunately, however, film is essentially dead - Fuji's shut up their proverbial motion picture film shop, and last I heard, Kodak's looking for a buyer. It makes me cry haha. It's unfortunate, the death of film probably signals the beginning of the end of the great artistry in filmmaking.

I sincerely hope film schools across the world, and sets in general instill the discipline into newcomers to the film industry that film otherwise taught.

Ultimately, hopefully budgets will instill that - shooting on film means you have to have everything planned to the nth degree, and you need to rehearse everything beforehand, and you need to know your lighting and your lighting ratios etc. etc. etc.
I hope on the high end that dwindling budgets will mean that discipline will need to remain in order to keep everything on time and to budget, but I fear the low-end of film-making will take over, where people will hire themselves out for 1/5th of what a professional would otherwise be paid, stuff around on st with no discipline and end up with a passable image.

I fear the day when we settle for images that are 'passable'
 
The one thing I'd say is different is that film is still of much higher resolution, quality and latitude than digital in general, whereas with music/audio digital quickly surpassed 'analogue' in quality, or at least caught up to par with analogue very quickly.

Not that I know a great deal about the subject, but I was under the impression that raw 4k for example already technically surpassed the resolution possible with 35mm film?

Hmm, I'm not sure it was quickly, it took about 15 years from the invention of digital audio for it to surpass analogue. There was the added incentive that CDs could only be copied at a significant loss of quality, so it's take up as a distribution format raced ahead of the ability to actually create digital content. It wasn't really until the 90's that consumer computing power made digital audio available to the masses and from that point it took about a decade to make analogue recording virtually extinct.

Ultimately, hopefully budgets will instill that - shooting on film means you have to have everything planned to the nth degree, and you need to rehearse everything beforehand, and you need to know your lighting and your lighting ratios etc. etc. etc.

If you exchange the words "lighting" for "microphones" and "lighting ratios" for "microphone positioning" then you have explained how music used to be recorded. That's before it could all be re-tuned and "fixed in the mix" and when recording engineers were real experts on getting the best performance out of their mic collections and the acoustics of their studios. Change "fix it in the mix" to "fix it in post" and you see where this is going?!

...I fear the low-end of film-making will take over, where people will hire themselves out for 1/5th of what a professional would otherwise be paid, stuff around on st with no discipline and end up with a passable image... I fear the day when we settle for images that are 'passable'

If the history of the music industry is anything to go by, then the future is even worse than you describe! In the music biz people are hiring themselves (or others) at a fraction way, way lower than a 1/5 of what a professional would charge. Furthermore, not only will "passable" image quality become the norm but eventually the definition of "passable" will be lowered (by public consensus and budget demands) to a point much lower than it is today. A sobering thought indeed!!

G
 
Among the music people I know you can't imagine the excitement when they get to go into an analog studio. Pretty much considered the coolest thing ever. The reason more people don't do it (at the regional band level) is that these days tape is so expensive.
 
Among the music people I know you can't imagine the excitement when they get to go into an analog studio. Pretty much considered the coolest thing ever. The reason more people don't do it (at the regional band level) is that these days tape is so expensive.

I've seen that response as well, it's sad to see such ignorance. I disagee though that more people don't do it just because of the expense of tape. Some people don't do it not because of expense but because they know that analogue recording is inferior quality.

In virtually all cases analogue studios these days are really little more than marketing gimmicks, to take advantage of the excitement some musicians mistakenly have for analogue. They believe that by recording analogue on 2" tape is going to take them back to some golden era of music production, it's not! They're not going to get the team of individual specialists who were needed to create a good quality recording in say the 80's. Even if they could afford to go to one of the few places left who still use a team of specialists, that team could do a better job in digital anyway.

In practise, even in "analogue studios" there is virtually always some portion of the editing, mixing or mastering process which is carried out in the digital domain, so analogue music production simply doesn't really exist anymore. But, market forces dictate that regardless of the ignorance underpinning their desire, if people have the money to spend, there will always be someone willing to relieve them of it!

G
 
It does still exist (AAA) There are two studios in my own town (suburb of Nashville) that will still do your recording analog all the way through mastering if you want it and one re-mastering studio in town that will still re-master it analog if you want. It's still possible to stay on tape all the way through tape being used to create the LP master disc.

Don't want to derail the thread, but I strongly disagree that digital is "better". There is still something magical about about a sound wave that has never been diced up into 1s and 0s. It's actually having resurgence. As CD sales tank LP sales are growing (again) at double digit rates.

It's "art", process matters.
 
...I was under the impression that raw 4k for example already technically surpassed the resolution possible with 35mm film?

Not that I know a great deal either, but I have read that (allegedly) the highest quality of 35mm film gives a resolution roughly equal to 20MP digital. The Red Epic (4K) records at 9MP. In this case, the film would be of a higher "quality". That said, the lowest quality of 35mm film can equate to around 5MP. In that case, digital would be better. How you tell quality of film, I don't know...


...analogue music production simply doesn't really exist anymore...

Try telling that to Jack White! :D


As CD sales tank LP sales are growing (again) at double digit rates...

Whether or not that is the case, what about digital downloads? Approximately 98% of the worlds population own an iPod...



I just made that up.
 
It's a whole generation of people who have only ever listened to crappy super compressed MP3 that have no idea what a high quality recording through a good stereo even sounds like.

"Try telling that to Jack White!"

Who lives in Nashville and I run into at the coffee shop from time to time.
 
Don't want to derail the thread, but I strongly disagree that digital is "better". There is still something magical about about a sound wave that has never been diced up into 1s and 0s. It's actually having resurgence. As CD sales tank LP sales are growing (again) at double digit rates.

The "something magical" you are referring to has a name, it's called distortion. Dicing up sound waves into 1s and 0s is many times more accurate than dicing up sound waves into magnetic regions on a 2" tape. Overall, digital is orders of magnitude more accurate than the combination of distortions added by the analogue chain. So, I'm afraid you can't disagree that digital is better! However, you can by all means say that you prefer the sound of a recording with analogue distortion but I doubt even that is true in reality. I fully agree that many analogue recordings are much higher quality and sound much better but that is because of the people creating the recordings, not because it's analogue.

Nashville is notoriously conservative in the music biz and if analogue recording survives anywhere, it would be in Nashville. Along with this conservatism though, some of the more traditional recording skills and values have been retained and for that reason alone I hope the analogue studios in Nashville survive.

BTW, I don't think this conversation is off topic. I think the time is not far away when digital vastly surpasses 35mm film, as it has in music, maybe it's 8k or 16k cameras, maybe some development in the sensors or some other digital trick but one day this same conversation we're having about music production will be had with film.

G
 
I'll agree (somewhat) that it's subjective. I can't say it's "better" only that I prefer it.

Added:

Something to be said for "So you want to record using the same board that was used when George Jones recorded Hello Darling... well, actually we arrange that".

Lot of nostalgia in this town.
 
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Not that I know a great deal about the subject, but I was under the impression that raw 4k for example already technically surpassed the resolution possible with 35mm film?
Not really. It seems that way because in general, films are scanned at 2k, simply because the norm at the moment is to project at 2k, so there's no need to scan at any higher a resolution.

Kodak claim that they have 6k+ of information available in their negatives - but good luck finding a scanner to scan in that information!

Even at 4k resolution, digital sort of amalgamates all the colour information into that 4k (which is why RED is sometimes criticised for it's less-than-perfect colour reproduction - almost like the tradeoff for getting such high resolution). So that, your 4k (in basic terms) is kinda split up over your red, green and blue channel (ie 1,33k red, 1.33k blue, 1.33k green). Kodak touts the main difference at 4k being that with film, you have 4k raw of the red channel, 4k raw of the blue channel, and 4k raw of the green channel. As well, digital raw has to be compressed in some way. A lot/most features on RED are shot at between 3:1 and 5:1 compression, which is not heavy compression, but it is compression nonetheless. Film, by it's nature is uncompressed.

Hmm, I'm not sure it was quickly, it took about 15 years from the invention of digital audio for it to surpass analogue. There was the added incentive that CDs could only be copied at a significant loss of quality, so it's take up as a distribution format raced ahead of the ability to actually create digital content. It wasn't really until the 90's that consumer computing power made digital audio available to the masses and from that point it took about a decade to make analogue recording virtually extinct.
You certainly have greater knowledge on the matter than myself, though I tend to classify video tape as a 'digital' medium, even though you might say it's technically analogue. I also tend to classify cassette and 2" tape (in terms of audio) as more in the 'digital' realm than say vinyl, even though it is kinda 'analogue'.

I suppose I look at it in terms of 'anthing that isn't film' - and video tape was essentially the predecessor to 100% digital, and certainly without them we wouldn't be at the same place in terms of the technology as we are today. Cameras shooting video tape were around in the 80s, and only now are we starting to see results even close to that of traditional film. In fact, before the advent of RED (only 5 years ago) the best digital film-making technology we had was Varicam. So in that respect, given say Betacam came along in the early 80's, it's taken nearly 30 years and we're still not quite at the point of equalling film (though we are close).

The other thing to consider is Kodak is constantly trying to improve their film stocks and if they ever get out of financial trouble, I'm sure you'll see new film stocks released, faster film stocks, stocks with higher latitude etc.
AFAIK, there is/as no way to do such a thing with analogue/vinyl records and so there was only a certain point that digital had to reach tbefore it surpassed vinyl.

If you exchange the words "lighting" for "microphones" and "lighting ratios" for "microphone positioning" then you have explained how music used to be recorded. That's before it could all be re-tuned and "fixed in the mix" and when recording engineers were real experts on getting the best performance out of their mic collections and the acoustics of their studios. Change "fix it in the mix" to "fix it in post" and you see where this is going?!
:cry:

If the history of the music industry is anything to go by, then the future is even worse than you describe! In the music biz people are hiring themselves (or others) at a fraction way, way lower than a 1/5 of what a professional would charge. Furthermore, not only will "passable" image quality become the norm but eventually the definition of "passable" will be lowered (by public consensus and budget demands) to a point much lower than it is today. A sobering thought indeed!!

I think the major difference between audio and film is that with film, unlike audio, you go to a theatre to watch it. It needs to be big and grand and great for the theatre. With audio, it needs to be good enough to stand up on radio, and in $20 headphones on someone's iPod.
On the high end of film, you have professionals who can and will do what they want, work with who they want, and essentially shoot on whatever the hell they want. Hopefully this continues, and we see the continuation of high budget masterpiece movies. If movie theatres die out, then perhaps we'll see the industry head the same way as the audio industry, but I sincerely hope not. I personally like the industry as it is, just if Kodak were selling a little more film. I like having all the great options open to me, whilst still having masters create great pieces of art. Don't change industry! :P
 
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Slash records in Analog for his solo albums. Analog sounds better to me. I like the sound of Analog. I agree the expense is part of the problem. It is much cheaper to record in digital and also there is less experts out there with Analog studios.


Some people will re-record digital stems into tape. To add the compression and coloration that tape gives.
Some people like to do a hybird of Analog and Digital. I know there is people the prefer analog mixing and mastering.

Side by Side is an excellent film that compares and contrasts the two:

www.sidebysidethemovie.com

Looks like a cool doc.
 
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You certainly have greater knowledge on the matter than myself, though I tend to classify video tape as a 'digital' medium, even though you might say it's technically analogue. I also tend to classify cassette and 2" tape (in terms of audio) as more in the 'digital' realm than say vinyl, even though it is kinda 'analogue'.

Thanks for the info on digital film resolution.

I can't speak with any great knowledge about video as a picture capture/recording/storage medium. On the music side though, microphones are transducers, converting sound pressure energy into electrical energy. This electrical waveform is analogous to the sound waveform, hence "analogue" sound. We can store this electrical energy on magnetic tape to re-create the electrical energy and then convert with another transducer (a speaker) the energy back into sound pressure waves. With vinyl we convert the electrical energy into kinetic energy and back to electrical. Vinyl obviously has to be cut from a final mix stored on something (commonly called a master, although technically it's a pre-master). Almost always vinyl records are cut from digital masters, even if recorded, mixed and mastered in analogue (don't tell the audiophiles!). So if anything, 2" tape is more "analogue" than vinyl, although both are considered analogue.

Slash records in Analog for his solo albums. Analog sounds better to me. I like the sound of Analog. I agree the expense is part of the problem. It is much cheaper to record in digital and also there is less experts out there with Analog studios.

Digital audio wasn't invented to be cheaper, it was invented to be better quality and for some years it was more expensive to record in digital than in analogue. The recording medium is only a small part of the expense of creating a high quality recording. Mic collections, acoustics of the live and control rooms, monitoring systems and most importantly the skill of the recording, production and mastering engineers. The world's top studios are almost exclusively digital and they are not cheaper than the few remaining analogue studios. At a prosumer level it is far cheaper to get decent quality with digital than with analogue and the issue is that the vast majority of consumers are perfectly happy with these prosumer quality recordings, so why spend the money on high quality? So I don't agree that the expense of analogue tape and recording is really any part of the problem. The problem is that the vast majority of record labels and bands can't or don't want to invest the money to produce high quality digital recordings because they can't get enough of a ROI.

Some people will re-record digital stems into tape. To add the compression and coloration that tape gives. Some people like to do a hybird of Analog and Digital. I know there is people the prefer analog mixing and mastering.

This is very true and very sad. It was recognised many years ago that some consumers were accustomed to and preferred the inaccurate distorted sound of analogue recordings, so some enterprising companies started producing software to emulate these distortions in the digital domain. They weren't very good to start with but over recent years the modelling technology has greatly improved and in listening tests, even the finest "golden-eared" mastering engineers can't tell the difference. The problem isn't with the tools or the recording medium, it's with the people using those tools. In reality what you are doing is comparing high quality recordings with prosumer level recordings which are marketed as high quality.

Over decades, the music industry has become arguably the greatest of all masters of marketing. Entire market segments exist purely because of years of very sophisticated marketing, the audiophile market is a great example.

The argument now is no longer so much between analogue and digital but between digital and digital, or rather CD quality digital audio and so called High Definition digital audio. This "argument" is entirely marketing manufactured and driven, you should see some of the dirty tricks being used to fool the consumer. The bottom line is much the same though, higher quality audio personnel producing higher quality recordings in HD audio. The fact that applying exactly the same methodology to CD recordings results in absolutely no perceivable difference in quality compared to HD audio is hidden from the consumer because all the manufacturers of consumer audio equipment and content need new product to sell! Which is either more difficult or impossible if the technology has already far exceeded the capabilities of the ear to hear a difference.

Digital film technology has a long way to go before it gets to the point we're at with the music industry, maybe a decade or more. Let's just hope the film industry takes a different path and IMHO jax_rock's point about people going to the cinema is the best hope we have that it will.

G
 
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