ADR & 21st Century

[ciscokid]

I have an old Eclair ACL II from the 80s'.

I had an idea that I could make a film with just myself and a couple guys to help with equipment, get a couple local theatrical actors and minimise equipment. The biggest thing is sound. I want to film outside and I think, at this stage, having to worry about recording sound on location, being the only guy who knows anything about filming out of the people involved, would make it very difficult and more expensive.

Basically my question is: If I make this film and do the sound in post, leaving more money for stock - considering the sophisticated 21st century audience - what is the likelihood, even if the dubbing is good, of getting any distribution at all (i'm in the UK)?
Obviously I'm not looking for big-time distribution, any distribution would do - just so I have something against my name, something I can say I made and it was officially picked up.

Is it basically impossible to get distribution for a dubbed films nowadays, assuming the other content is watchable? I haven't seen any pure post-dub films since the influx of eastern bloc films in the 80s.

[Please don't tell me to get a digital camera...]

Thanks.

 

[AudioPostExpert]

I'm sorry, your logic seems backwards to me.

1. Your actors are not experienced in film so instead of just recording them speaking as they act, you want to give them the far more difficult job of dubbing the dialogue at a later stage?!

2. You want to save money by not hiring a production sound mixer and instead hire a dubbing studio, a dubbing engineer and an experienced dialogue editor for many weeks, how does that work out cheaper?! You must realise that although the title of your post says ADR, what you're suggesting is not ADR (Automatic Dialogue Replacement) because you will not have recorded any dialogue to replace. What you are actually suggesting is dubbing and there's nothing automated about it. It will all have to be edited manually and to get the sync accurate enough to satisfy a distributor is going to require someone who really knows what they are doing and a great deal of time. Instead of needing a dialogue editor for a week or so, as would be the case with production dialogue and some ADR, you're going to need a dialogue editor for at least a month and maybe two!

In short, your idea of not hiring a production sound mixer and not recording the production sound is going to be far more difficult, cost far more money, take far longer and all to achieve a far worse film. Sorry but I just don't see the logic?

G

 

[Alcove Audio]

As APE pointed out, your thinking is completely bass ackwards.

1. Every dollar/hour you spend on production sound will save you ten in audio post.

2. As APE also noted, even if you decide to replace all of the dialog it will save you lots of time and money to have an audio reference recorded during production.

3. Another issue is that ADRed dialog often lacks the passionate performance of production dialog.

 

[AudioPostExpert]

Damn Alcove, you've just reminded me that I'm an audio post professional and not a production sound mixer. What I should have said to Ciskokid is:

"Great idea! Who would want a pesky production sound mixer hanging around the set and slowing down the filming process? It can all be done in audio post as you suggested. By the way, I can offer very reasonable rates for a 2 or 3 month audio post contract!"

 

[Alcove Audio]

Because we would rather be enhancing something wonderful than fixing something that shouldn't be broken in the first place.

In other words, if the people making the film expend the time, effort and funds to capture solid production sound we can be artists instead of repair men.

Audio post should be an artistic endeavor, not a rescue mission.

Or how about this; would you rather have us spend 200 hours dialog editing, 400 hours doing Foley and creating sound FX and 100 hours mixing, or would you rather have us spend 400 hours trying to fix the crappy production sound, 200 hours recording and editing ADR and 600 hours doing Foley and creating sound FX and 200 hours mixing. Ooops, we've doubled your audio post budget, and the results will be less than if you captured solid production sound in the first place.

 

[ciscokid]

Thanks for the replies.

Perhaps I wasn't detailed enough in my original post. I do intend to record onset audio, though only so the 'actors' have something to help with timing during post and perhaps for the ambient sound, hence 'ADR'.

You mentioning 'hiring', I do not intend to hire any film audio professional or a studio, if such things even exist one-hundred miles from where I live, yes, there are film-makers in rural areas. I realise this stacks the odds in favour of the film not being distributed, but I'm willing to take the gamble.

I intend to do most of the work myself, i.e. directing, lighting cameraman, producing. The logic behind the post-dubbing being that it would be one less thing to worry about during production - freeing me up to concentrate on good visuals [which I think would be hard to achieve if recording on set final audio w/o an audio professional & expensive equipment]

I have recorded onset final audio before with a shotgun mic, and while, visually, the short films were good, the audio brought it down, as much of the time I had an inexperienced friend just holding the boom, or going solo recording it with a boom stand. Other times I could not get shots I wanted due the restraints I had with the audio equipment and the required distance the mic needs to be to pick up dialogue etc. Perhaps this was a case of me not being creative or experienced enough, or spending enough on the audio in post, but perhaps not. Like I said, I'm far from any urban centre, the closest being a small provincial city, where if such facilities exist for studio recording, doubtful, it will most probably be very expensive to use.

My interest in post-sync was partly, like I mentioned, to avoid the restraints of recording audio during production, this article (http://www.oocities.org/gselinsky/nonsync.html). I also have a friend who is a sound engineer, although no experience working in films, he suggested the idea and referenced many Soviet films and US exploitation films from the 20th century, including some successful film-makers first outings, such as El Mariachi (Rodriguez) or Fear and Desire (Kubrick) - which were both picked up by a distributor. He said that he thought audio of that quality is achievable nowadays cheaply (without a studio & film audio pro), if you are creative and have a track for the actors to follow; though I was uncertain, his experience is mostly concerts and recording podcasts, this thread was partly to help clear up the uncertainty I have regarding his opinions. That's my first question: in your opinion, is audio of the films I referenced achievable without the need to hire an expensive studio, professionals etc, just through DIY home recording? I would have assistance from a sound engineer friend, but recording film is a completely different animal of course, though his experience counts for something I imagine.

My final question was: a film with the quality of dubbing seen in for example the 70s US exploitation films, or 'El Mariachi' and 'Fear and Desire', assuming it is in fact achievable in a home recording environment, are such films even distributed nowadays, or are the 21st century audiences too sophisticated to make distributing films with this sort of dub worthwhile? I understand there are too many variables to give an exact answer, I'm talking about distributors general feelings towards dubbing nowadays.

All opinions welcome - audio is not a language I'm fluent in, as you can probably deduce.

 

[Alcove Audio]

What you have to remember about the films you mentioned, 'El Mariachi' and 'Fear and Desire', etc., is that the audio post was done by very experienced people with access to the best technology of the day.

If you really read all of our posts instead of just glancing at them you may have picked up on " Every dollar/hour you spend on production sound will save you ten in audio post." This is not just a saying, it is the absolute truth when it comes to indie filmmaking.

What I would suggest is that you shoot a test scene and then do the ADR on it. You will find that it is MUCH more difficult than you believe.

You will also find that doing Foley is a lot harder than you think. That's right, you will have to Foley the entire film, otherwise your dialog is just words floating around completely disconnected from the scene.

And yes, your friend may have some audio experience, but sound-for-picture is nothing like music production. I know, I started out as a professional musician, became a music engineer and them migrated to audio post. Sound-for-picture required a very radical change in my thinking, and it took quite a while for me to get it right.

 

[AudioPostExpert]

I do not intend to hire any film audio professional or a studio, if such things even exist one-hundred miles from where I live, yes, there are film-makers in rural areas. I realise this stacks the odds in favour of the film not being distributed, but I'm willing to take the gamble.

The odds you're talking about are severe, add to that your idea of dubbing all your dialogue and the odds become virtually impossible IMO. As you said though, it's your time and money and if you're happy with the risk, go for it.

The logic behind the post-dubbing being that it would be one less thing to worry about during production - freeing me up to concentrate on good visuals [which I think would be hard to achieve if recording on set final audio w/o an audio professional & expensive equipment

Again, IMO your logic is backwards. What you see in a film is influenced by what you hear and vice versa. In other words, you can capture the greatest acting performance in the visuals but it will still be perceived as poor acting if the whole thing is poorly ADR'ed. And just so you know, getting good ADR is exceptionally difficult, even for world class ADR studios/personnel and world class actors.

I have recorded onset final audio before with a shotgun mic, and while, visually, the short films were good, the audio brought it down

I understand your dilemma but your proposed solution is far more likely to bring the quality of your audio down even further! The cheapest solution and the one which will result in the highest quality is not an audio post botch job but to record good audio in the first place.

I also have a friend who is a sound engineer, although no experience working in films, he suggested the idea and referenced many Soviet films and US exploitation films from the 20th century, including some successful film-makers first outings, such as El Mariachi (Rodriguez) or Fear and Desire (Kubrick) - which were both picked up by a distributor. He said that he thought audio of that quality is achievable nowadays cheaply (without a studio & film audio pro), if you are creative and have a track for the actors to follow

It is achievable nowadays. I'm sure you've read somewhere that El Mariachi cost $7,000 to make. That's a lie! Yes the original film did cost $7,000 but to bring it up to the standards required to distribute/release it required a great deal of additional post production which cost an additional $300,000 or so. You could probably do this quite a lot cheaper today but you'll still need some talented audio pros, high class facilities and a pretty serious budget. I'm afraid your friend knows far less than you realise, if he thinks for a moment that someone without any professional experience and without a studio can get anywhere near the work of the top class professionals/studios of 20 years or so ago. Or maybe when your friend mentioned being creative he meant more along the lines of drugging the distributors so they don't notice the terrible sound! BTW, the article you referenced, some of the methodology is inaccurate/wrong but on the whole reasonable advice for making films with noisy cameras to be distributed on Youtube. Pretty much entirely useless advice for a professional product though!

... are the 21st century audiences too sophisticated to make distributing films with this sort of dub worthwhile? I understand there are too many variables to give an exact answer, I'm talking about distributors general feelings towards dubbing nowadays.

The answer to that question IMO is definitely "yes" and forms the basis of all the advice Alcove and I have posted on this thread. However, I obviously don't have experience of every possible avenue of commercial distribution which exists on the planet. Maybe there is a TV station or distributor somewhere who, for some reason, is looking for an extremely low cost film which falls well below current expectations. As I said to start with, it's your time and money and if you're willing to take the risk, go for it.

G

 

[ciscokid]

What you have to remember about the films you mentioned, 'El Mariachi' and 'Fear and Desire', etc., is that the audio post was done by very experienced people with access to the best technology of the day.

If you really read all of our posts instead of just glancing at them you may have picked up on " Every dollar/hour you spend on production sound will save you ten in audio post." This is not just a saying, it is the absolute truth when it comes to indie filmmaking.

What I would suggest is that you shoot a test scene and then do the ADR on it. You will find that it is MUCH more difficult than you believe.

You will also find that doing Foley is a lot harder than you think. That's right, you will have to Foley the entire film, otherwise your dialog is just words floating around completely disconnected from the scene.

And yes, your friend may have some audio experience, but sound-for-picture is nothing like music production. I know, I started out as a professional musician, became a music engineer and them migrated to audio post. Sound-for-picture required a very radical change in my thinking, and it took quite a while for me to get it right.

I can see Connecticut so I'm going to go ahead and assume that have much more options within your area, or within commuting distance, in regards to implementing, on low budget, production sound etc. Now, I don't know if you've ever worked in the United Kingdom, or more specifically, outside of London, but unfortunately, options are very limited and prices are not comparable to the States, similar to food, petrol, film stock prices and taxation funnily enough. And contrary to your post, did in fact read your saying - both times.
[Just out of interest, what is the typical fee for a boom operator/recordist in the US? Hourly/daily]

Edit ---- Initially I believed that doing the ADR would be technically more difficult and take much more time, but not money. The reason I was so keen to do it was that I thought it would free me up during production and would actually cost less than to hire an recordist, I assumed a professional studio would be unnecessary and thought the only additional costs for post-sync would be in time and software, as I have heard stories from people who recorded in their closet using the clothes to dampen the sound etc. -----

I understand your suggestion: hire a recordist, for the shots where you can't have a boom to pick up dialogue - sort it in the ADR. But it would be as simple as just a recordist? Unless I find a jack-of-all-audio-trades, would it not require me to hire a recordist, mixer, supervisor and a post guy? At least it would require me to hire a recordist/operator and an ADR guy, no? What is the minimum audio personnel that you can typically get away with?

Much appreciated.

 

[AudioPostExpert]

I don't know if you've ever worked in the United Kingdom, or more specifically, outside of London, but unfortunately, options are very limited and prices are not comparable to the States, similar to food, petrol, film stock prices and taxation funnily enough.

I can't speak for Alcove but I lived virtually my entire life in the UK, although most of it in London. I did live for a few years in Devon not so long ago though. Prices in the UK for audio pros are not much different from prices in the US, if anything, UK prices are marginally cheaper. What determines the price is the range and quality of the equipment/facilities owned and the level of experience and skill. So, depending on where exactly you are in the UK you can get an audio student with college equipment for a fee of about a pint of beer a day, all the way up to a top production sound mixer for over £1,000 per day.

What is the minimum audio personnel that you can typically get away with?

The easy way to find out is to count the audio personnel in the credits of some of the DVDs you own. As a guide though, a low budget film would typically have 6-10 people work on the sound (production and post production personnel), a blockbuster on the other hand would usually have at least 20 and sometimes as many as 40 or more and the audio post would usually take around 4-5 months. The most I've bothered to count was for Armageddon, which lists 74 audio personnel in the credits. Audio budgets (production + post) for commercial films range from around £30,000 to well over £1m.

BTW, as a general rule of filmmaking, ADR is always a last resort.

G

 

[ciscokid]

I can't speak for Alcove but I lived virtually my entire life in the UK, although most of it in London. I did live for a few years in Devon not so long ago though. Prices in the UK for audio pros are not much different from prices in the US, if anything, UK prices are marginally cheaper. What determines the price is the range and quality of the equipment/facilities owned and the level of experience and skill. So, depending on where exactly you are in the UK you can get an audio student with college equipment for a fee of about a pint of beer a day, all the way up to a top production sound mixer for over £1,000 per day.



The easy way to find out is to count the audio personnel in the credits of some of the DVDs you own. As a guide though, a low budget film would typically have 6-10 people work on the sound (production and post production personnel), a blockbuster on the other hand would usually have at least 20 and sometimes as many as 40 or more and the audio post would usually take around 4-5 months. The most I've bothered to count was for Armageddon, which lists 74 audio personnel in the credits. Audio budgets (production + post) for commercial films range from around £30,000 to well over £1m.

BTW, as a general rule of filmmaking, ADR is always a last resort.

G

South England generally has good variety and options for, well everything. But have you ever been to Wick haha? Not exactly a filmmakers paradise. I'm probably coming across as if I haven't researched personnel adequately - being so far up north I usually just find it safe to assume the worst when it comes to resources, personnel etc, as not many people can either be bothered or afford to travel regularly up here, not to mention during winter when there is a lot trouble on the A roads with snow and black ice. I end up using mostly locals. The colleges up here belong in a district system for the entire Highland region, with campuses spread out everywhere, nearest with such facilities I would imagine is in Thurso, though it is mainly a vocational institute, but it's definitely worth a shot - thank you.

Anyway.

Six to ten is a disconcerting number as the most people I have ever had to work with in previous projects was five, over all positions, including actors. Surely it is possible to get acceptable audio without such high numbers of people? Say person experienced in recording, mixing and post, with an inexperienced assistant to help him out where needed - which is probably all I could acquire, unless there is a lot of budding, competent audio students willing to work for free nearby.
My budget is £7,000-£10,000. If ADR is the last resort, I'm having difficulty fathoming how you can record dialogue in a E/Long shot, considering the longest boom pole I have ever used, or seen, was nine feet and when fully extended there were many technical problems with poor control, intruding into the shot, shadows, not to mention serious arm aches & whining. Problems with boom operation not allowing me to get my shots and intruding on my lighting schemes was why I was so hot on post-syncing initially, though the responses to this have more or less extinguished that idea. If only low-budget silent films were still marketable

 

[AudioPostExpert]

But have you ever been to Wick haha?

You might be surprised to learn that I have been to Wick! In fact I did a concert there 15 or so years ago with my ex-wife (she was the musician, I was doing the sound), who lives in England but originally hails from near Ellon (Aberdeenshire). I get your point though, Wick is nearly as far out of the way as it's possible to get in the UK. There's plenty of decent quality audio post in Glasgow but I realise that's still long way away. The most efficient option in your case would probably be to work remotely. Use audio post services from somewhere else in the country (or even a different country) and exchange materials via FTP servers and communicate via skype, this is not an uncommon workflow.

Six to ten is a disconcerting number as the most people I have ever had to work with in previous projects was five, over all positions, including actors. Surely it is possible to get acceptable audio without such high numbers of people? Say person experienced in recording, mixing and post, with an inexperienced assistant to help him out where needed..

It is possible with less than 6-10, it just becomes less likely, there are plenty of films with 6-10 audio personnel which are still only barely acceptable professionally. By the time you get down to one jack of all (audio) trades and an inexperienced assistant your chances are very small indeed.

If ADR is the last resort, I'm having difficulty fathoming how you can record dialogue in a E/Long shot, considering the longest boom pole I have ever used, or seen, was nine feet ...

A wireless lav would be used in this instance and/or possibly a plant mic. If you can't use a lav, plant or boom mic then you have exhausted all the other "resorts" and you're left with ADR. It's not that you should never use ADR, just that as a general rule you should avoid it wherever possible.

G

 

[Alcove Audio]

Just out of interest, what is the typical fee for a boom operator/recordist in the US? Hourly/daily

You can get a beginner for travel expenses and food. Someone with knowledge and experience with minimal gear looking to make a name for him/herself, $100 to $200 day. After that you get professional/union rates.

Surely it is possible to get acceptable audio without such high numbers of people?

Say person experienced in recording, mixing and post, with an inexperienced assistant to help him out where needed

I'm a one-man-band audio post house specializing in low/no/mini/micro budget indie projects. I do it all - dialog editing, ADR recording/editing, Foley recording/editing, sound effects recording/editing, music editing and rerecording. When I'm doing a complete audio post I put in an average of six (6) hours per linear minute of film. For a 100 minute feature that's 600 hours. My last feature job was 112 minutes; I put in 685 hours over six months.

If a quick turnaround is desired the audio post is split up between specialists - a dialog editor, an ADR mixer/editor, a Foley team (walker and mixer), a sound FX team (field recordist and editor) and a music editor, all of whom are overseen by a supervising sound editor. At this level there is usually a data wrangler as well. Then the director, supervising sound editor and rerecording mixer(s) collaborate on the mix.

... the longest boom pole I have ever used, or seen, was nine feet and when fully extended...

K-Tek makes several 20' boom-poles. Granted, they are in the $700 to $900 range...

In long shots there are a variety of ways to present the dialog. A great boom-op, with the cooperation of the director and DP, can manage to capture usable dialog using a 20' boom-pole. There is also the wireless lav option. What you are neglecting in your thinking is the dialog editing process. It is common practice to use dialog from close-ups, two-shots, etc. in the medium and long shots; that's what a dialog editor does, creates from the alt/unused takes the best dialog track possible.

...are such films even distributed nowadays, or are the 21st century audiences too sophisticated to make distributing films with this sort of dub worthwhile?

Audiences are much more sophisticated than they were 40 years ago; back then 80% of mixes were in mono, now 5.1 surround is the standard. The audiences also don't see a film once, they watch it over and over on cable and DVD, so what may get by on a single screening will not stand up to multiple viewings.


You can do whatever you wish to do, but A.P.E. and myself both advise that you do everything possible to capture solid production sound; we feel that you are asking for numerous extended painful headaches by wanting to ADR the entire project.

 

[ciscokid]

You might be surprised to learn that I have been to Wick!

Small world. The surrounding landscape is very cinematic, some great backdrops, free too, on account of the UK's liberal roaming laws.

I'm a one-man-band audio post house specializing in low/no/mini/micro budget indie projects. I do it all - dialog editing, ADR recording/editing, Foley recording/editing, sound effects recording/editing, music editing and rerecording. When I'm doing a complete audio post I put in an average of six (6) hours per linear minute of film. For a 100 minute feature that's 600 hours. My last feature job was 112 minutes; I put in 685 hours over six months.

I was wondering, A.P.E., if you know of anyone similar to Alove but in the UK, someone who is a jack-of-all-trades type. I understand the recommendations of the more audio pro's the better; but to be realistic, logistically and financially, it is implausible for me to meet your recommended audio manpower numbers, unless I can get competent students. Suffice to say that every penny spent in production will save in post, but if the pennies don't exist in the first place you're forced to find alternatives and make do no doubt.

Thanks.

 

[AudioPostExpert]

I was wondering, A.P.E., if you know of anyone similar to Alove but in the UK, someone who is a jack-of-all-trades type. I understand the recommendations of the more audio pro's the better; but to be realistic, logistically and financially, it is implausible for me to meet your recommended audio manpower numbers, unless I can get competent students.

By definition, students aren't competent, they are learning how to become competent but won't achieve competency until they leave education and have at least a year (and more likely several years) of professional experience under their belt.

There are many people like Alcove in the UK and one or two I would recommend but they are so far away from you that meeting them in person as often as you would like is going be impractical. For this reason, Alcove would be just as good a choice. I recommend you contact him privately and he'll explain the details of how in modern filmmaking with file based workflows being 5,000 miles apart is not really any different to being 200 miles apart.

G

 

[Sweetie]

Hey, it looks like these audio guys are beating you up. Just by reading this thread, I can imagine what it feels like to come second best against a heavy weight professional boxer.

While audio is important (go watch Blair Witch project for an example. People can forgive lesser video but rarely forgive lesser audio) there are other factors to consider, like a great story, told well.

If you're looking at shooting a particular way, I suspect that you're only going to be convinced one way or another is if you do some actual testing of the equipment and people you intend to use. See how the end product looks. If you think it's professional enough where you'd feel comfortable that you'd get a positive response to asking someone to spend their money to distribute your film, then post the test here and get more opinions.

From what I saw of what you're trying to do, you're going to run into issues. Then again, I don't know what you mean by distribution. If you mean youtube, I'm sure someone here can be your distribution agent. If you're talking about cinema distribution, 4 walling may be an option for you to consider if its just the named credit you're after.

 

[AudioPostExpert]

While audio is important .. there are other factors to consider, like a great story, told well.

Not sure I understand this statement. Sound Design is ALL (100%) about telling the story, rather than it being a different factor to consider.

G

 

[ciscokid]

By definition, students aren't competent, they are learning how to become competent but won't achieve competency until they leave education and have at least a year (and more likely several years) of professional experience under their belt.

There are many people like Alcove in the UK and one or two I would recommend but they are so far away from you that meeting them in person as often as you would like is going be impractical. For this reason, Alcove would be just as good a choice. I recommend you contact him privately and he'll explain the details of how in modern filmmaking with file based workflows being 5,000 miles apart is not really any different to being 200 miles apart.

G

Well, by jack-of-all-trade, I meant a competent boom operator/recordist on set to ensure we are getting the necessary audio coverage and someone who will work in post also. Like I mentioned, my bad experiences with audio can be mainly attributed to giving the job of recordist to someone inexperienced, hence the intrusions into my shots and lighting schemes.

 

[eraserhead_in_time]

IF you decide to go ADR route, check out Adobe Auditions automatic sync feature for ADR. Its a one click solution that saved me hourssssssssss

 

[AudioPostExpert]

Well, by jack-of-all-trade, I meant a competent boom operator/recordist on set to ensure we are getting the necessary audio coverage and someone who will work in post also.

You have to realise all the audio roles in film: Production Sound Mixer, Boom Operator, ADR Supervisor, ADR Recordist, ADR Editor, ADR Mixer, Dialogue Editor, SFX Designer, SFX recordist, SFX Editor, SFX Mixer, Foley Artist, Foley Recordist, Foley Editor, Foley Mixer, Sound Designer and Re-recording Mixer. These are all individual jobs and in the film industry there are many who make their living specialising in just one of these jobs. Most of these roles require years to master, some of them require decades. I know you are looking for competency rather than mastery but even so, for one person to be professionally competent in all of them is a tall order. Not impossible to find but not easy, certainly not a student! You need someone with many years of professional experience. I can recommend one-man-bands who would be fine for good quality YouTube distribution or for regional film festivals but there are few capable of fully professional/commercial grade work and even then you'd have to budget and allow for many months of audio post.

G