A couple of general screenwriting questions!

[lalyil]

Hi guys (any women here bytheway?),

I just reached page 20 of my screenplay.
Now I have to say I seem to dislike 'going by the book' (i.e McKee) and it seems to be a lot easier for me to just "flow" with the writing.. also a lot more enjoyable.

I haven't done any sort of outline, treatment, synopsis.. nada. And when I try to gather myself to write one, I find it extremely difficult. Mainly because I'm aweful at summarizing but then also because I don't know myself what's about to happen. I only have the present and the ending.. the rest I just write as I go, knowing exactly where I'm going to end up.

However, having read a lot of screenwriting tips and the likes, I have to ask...


1. For better character developement and story telling, would it be better if I STOP and write a proper summary before continuing?

2. If someone in the industry wishes to see my work so far, should I include the 20 pages or just the first 10 pages as some suggested before? And in my email to him should I include the ending (a twist)? (although all events from now until the ending are still very vague)


And last
I just noticed my first 10 pages have about.. 20 scenes I realise it's a lot, but it's quite crucial to the story... thought? I might try to rewrite some of it.


Thanks in advance guys!

 

[millar prescott]

20 pages

Let's have a read.
millar@millarprescott.com

 

[margo macabee]

Hi Lalyil,

I'm Margo, working on my second screenplay, yeah! I did the first one from my novel, page for arghing page, I'm doing this second one from an outline and index cards.

#1-

Sure I was learning with the first screenplay. It...took...me...a...year. But with my outlined script I was looking at a very good 4th draft in two months. I'm having a meeting today with someone who did a full critique and thinks it's great. 'Circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back of each one'! I've got plenty of work to do still but hey! A fellow writer loves it enough to critique it on his own time. OUTLINE!

I HIGHLY suggest you stop and write an outline and I personally loved the index cards. We've only got 100 pages (or so) to get our story out in a fairly rigid format. We have to now where we are going. We have a time/page limit we have to adhere to somewhat.

So in my experience rather than 'writing my way through' a script, that I have to rewrite and rewite and rewrite anyway, an outline and cards gave me a MUCH clearer idea of what I needed in my story before I wrote endless scenes that I didn't need. Much like in my first screenplay. Man there was some crap I wish I hadn't wasted my time writing. I could have saved myself MONTHS of writing if I had merely done an outline.

If I had done outlines and done stuff more or less by the book(and I'm not a rule follower, at all. Totally against the grain) I would have the three or four finished screenplays that my heart aches to write. Instead of two.

I enjoy writing so much. It's almost spiritual to me. Sounds like you get a lift from it s well. I hated the possibilty of taking that part away by following such a rigid path. This is my ART, you know. But it didn't take away from my experience or my story. In fact the damn thing was easier to write and get it how I wanted it. It was easier to create what I was seeing in my head, by tri-folds.

I wish I had written a longer outline, more character development, etc. It's nice to 'know' the people you are writing about, easier to know what they would do in situations if you are intimite with the character.

I don't know whether I'm right or wrong. I tried writing screenplays three different ways. This is how I got the best and quickest result. And professional-looking/reading.


#2-
I don't have a clue how/when a person should send/show their work. But we have our fine guru's here with that kinda info. *margo gets her cut/paste fingers and her 'Filmy' file ready*
I guess if someone in the industry asked me to see my unfinished work, I'd just make sure I had it copyrighted or secured legally somehow, then make them a pie!


Okay, now I'm going to write. Fun! Have a good day,

Margo

 

[lalyil]

Margo, thank you!

I have to say though it seems that writing the outline is my problem. I just can't seem to be able to summarize things! lol
I'm finding it extremely difficult

 

[margo macabee]

Margo, thank you!

I have to say though it seems that writing the outline is my problem. I just can't seem to be able to summarize things! lol
I'm finding it extremely difficult

I gotcha. It's my logline that scares me!
Maybe try NOT summarizing your outline at first. Guess that would be more of a back story though, huh? Either way. Write it how you can write it. Emphasis on each word. Don't let the books completely rule you. Syd Field says write 40 pages. I am NOT writing 40 page outline. True to yourself and all that. I'm a sap. What can you do?

An example that drifted into my mind:

I still got all the same clothes in my closet. I WILL sport my own style. I just hang the items up in the closet in a more understandable and efficient way.

Zorro, the Gay Blade is on, gotta go,
Have Fun!

Margo

 

[Unknown Screenwriter]

lalyil,

There's a REASON you're experiencing FLOW so why FIGHT IT? Often, when I've seriously tapped into my characters whom are completely tapped into all aspects of the story's theme, I experience MASSIVE, EFFORTLESS FLOW.

This is ORGANIC and this OFTEN where the real magic kicks in so I for one would encourage you to play that out.

You can ALWAYS come back to what you've written with an outline and forge it back into structural shape.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with writing this way so don't second-guess it... LET IT HAPPEN.

filmy

 

[lalyil]

Another question, this time not so general lol

ESTABLISHING SHOTS.
My character was on a ship from Europe to New York. It has been SAID. Next scene he's having dinner in his new home in New York...
An establishing shot in between, basically showing the ship 'mooring' at the dock could be pretty and flow nicely.. but might look like a waste of space to those reading it (besides I know the 'big boys' don't like reading about camera angles and such, what about establishing shots?)
THOUGHTS?


and Margo, nicely said!!
Well, I just read a bit of McKee, though I'm rebelling against reading the WHOLE thing for now (I'm really just lazy and using my rebellious nature as an excuse) but I did decide to give the outline a go...
I'm on page 20 and I wanna change some, I want to be able to send the unfinished thing, knowing that it's as excellent as the general idea is
So, I'll dedicate the weekend for it. See how it goes.
Thanks for your support

 

[lalyil]

lalyil,

There's a REASON you're experiencing FLOW so why FIGHT IT? Often, when I've seriously tapped into my characters whom are completely tapped into all aspects of the story's theme, I experience MASSIVE, EFFORTLESS FLOW.

This is ORGANIC and this OFTEN where the real magic kicks in so I for one would encourage you to play that out.

You can ALWAYS come back to what you've written with an outline and forge it back into structural shape.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with writing this way so don't second-guess it... LET IT HAPPEN.

filmy

That's what I needed to hear, thank you!

Though I've decided to give the outline another go, it's more so I can rewrite some of the things already written. I don't think I'll actually do an outline on the 'future' yet, simply because it's too difficult for me. I enjoy re-reading what I've done and then just 'rolling' with it

Thank you!

 

[Unknown Screenwriter]

Another question, this time not so general lol

ESTABLISHING SHOTS.
My character was on a ship from Europe to New York. It has been SAID. Next scene he's having dinner in his new home in New York...
An establishing shot in between, basically showing the ship 'mooring' at the dock could be pretty and flow nicely.. but might look like a waste of space to those reading it (besides I know the 'big boys' don't like reading about camera angles and such, what about establishing shots?)
THOUGHTS?


and Margo, nicely said!!
Well, I just read a bit of McKee, though I'm rebelling against reading the WHOLE thing for now (I'm really just lazy and using my rebellious nature as an excuse) but I did decide to give the outline a go...
I'm on page 20 and I wanna change some, I want to be able to send the unfinished thing, knowing that it's as excellent as the general idea is
So, I'll dedicate the weekend for it. See how it goes.
Thanks for your support

Hard to say -- depends on the ship's scenes. If you give us an idea as to where this character is headed, a new location heading in the new location might be all you need.

What happened to your flow? LOL.

Just let it happen... Those are very tiny things you can easily resolve later on... One of the worst things you can do is caught up in tiny details like this while experiencing FLOW.

filmy

 

[lalyil]

haha FJ, as said in previous post - the outline so far will only be for what was already written! I find it too difficult to 'think' about the 'future' without actually writing the script.. but I do want to rewrite some of the scenes (especially because I have WAY too many) and thought an outline might help with that. And seeing as I'm probably not going to show the outline to anyone, I'm allowing myself to write it very poorly
The flow remains unharmed!


Here's the ship sequence...

INT. SHIP CABIN - 1945 - MORNING

Jacob wakes up. He's in his teens. A handsome young man. He looks around, unsure where he is. He approaches a small mirror hanged by the window. Shocked, he strokes his own face. Then turns to look outside the window - Ocean. He leaves the cabin.

EXT. SHIP DECK - MORNING

A lot of people around the deck. MARTHA, a wealthy 38 years old, is chatting to another middle-class woman. She turns her head and notices young Jacob. She approaches him. He smiles and hugs her tightly, she seems surprised and emotional about his reaction.

MARTHA
Dale honey, how are you?

Jacob's body is shaking. Tears in his eyes. He takes a minute. Seems he had only just remembered the horrors of his past and fears what's soon to come.

MARTHA (CONT'D)
My boy. Do not worry.

Martha strokes Jacob's face gently, comforting smile on her as she wipes his tears.

MARTHA (CONT'D)
A bright future awaits you, embrace it.

Jacob looks at her and smiles.

MARTHA (CONT'D)
You will love New York.

 

[Unknown Screenwriter]

Is this a spec or something you're trying to make on your own?

Either way, you might want to get your format correct... This sounds like Jacob's introduction... Is it? If so, the first time you mention him, his name needs to be in ALL CAPS.

A "handsome young man" is the kiss of death to me as soon as I read it... Why?

Because everybody and I mean almost EVERYBODY writes an intro like this and it's a red flag to someone experienced reading... If you're just going to shoot this on your own -- no big deal.

He "looks around" is WEAK writing... Give us the PERFECT action verb to provoke the VISUAL you want us to have...

He scans the cabin...
He inspects the cabin...
He surveys the cabin...

Also... "unsure where he is." -- How do we SHOOT "unsure" --? Give us some ACTION or dialogue that relates this to us, the audience. As it is now, it's simply an aside for whomever's reading it.

Same with, "Seems he had only just remembered the horrors of his past and fears what's soon to come." --Would this be a flashback? How do we shoot it?

--I still don't understand what you're saying... Are you saying you want to sit down and outline what you already have? Why? And how would outlining what you already have make what you have any shorter? How would outlining the scenes you already have actually CUT scenes?

--I'm CONFUSED. LOL.

I think you're making this way too hard... But maybe I'm missing something.

*NOTE: I only mentioned the problems I saw because these definitely are potential problems... Which makes me THINK your script might have a lot more of them. If this is something you intend to shoot -- fine. But even having said that, getting it right is something to consider achieving especially if you ever want someone to invest in one of your projects that begins with a single screenplay...

filmy

EDIT: Also want to point out that I'm not PICKING ON YOU... LOL. I see stuff like this and I know with a few notes, EVERYBODY benefits.

 

[lalyil]

FJ, thanks! See, that's why I kept harrassing people that I want feedback, I WANT people to tell me these things so I can fix it..

This isn't EXACTLY the first time Jacob is mentioned. He's been mentioned before only in a different age. That's why his name isn't capped.
I took in mind everything else you mentioned and will change it properly

And outlining what I already have simply makes it easier for me to see the structure and change things.. It really does.


But you still didn't help me with the reason I actually posted that bit in the first place
New York?!

 

[Unknown Screenwriter]

lalyil,

Okay... Cool. I figured it wasn't since I did see Margo's name in caps but thought it was worth mentioning nonetheless.

As for the New York location...

Instead of a throwaway scene like mooring the ship, what about the otherwise quiet ship now getting louder and louder? Loud enough to make Jacob CURIOUS. Curious to ponder outside or exit his cabin to see them entering port?

My fear would be creating a scene just for establishing when the same scene could easily cover MORE BASES.

Again, a little difficult to suggest how to proceed when I haven't read what you have... I don't care so much about what comes afterward as I do about everything leading up to this moment.

filmy

 

[lalyil]

Well, if you want to read it I'd be happy to send it over

I just read the whole thing again and tried to change things as you suggested, giving only the basic guidelines, actions and descriptions. Trying to make it all as clear as possible.

 

[thefilmgeek]

I'd say never stop writing the screenplay to try to do things "the right way."

If I'm tearing through pages like a madman, rocking the script out, I wouldn't dare stop myself and try to outline or otherwise 'formalize' the writing. I just let the keyboard beat the crap out of Final Draft! Outlines be darned!

That's really my best piece of advice on the subject. The main thing I've learned is to never stop writing when I'm actually writing... who knows when the next writers block will come! Cherish the moments!

 

[quitofilmsdotcom]

I just reached page 20 of my screenplay.
Now I have to say I seem to dislike 'going by the book' (i.e McKee) and it seems to be a lot easier for me to just "flow" with the writing.. also a lot more enjoyable.

I haven't done any sort of outline, treatment, synopsis.. nada.!

All the information you are going to get will be based on everyone's personal experience but just to add my two cents:
1. Outlining is crucial..even a basic "this happens and then this happens" will keep you from the desert wasteland of Act Two Part Two (or "when the hero loses it all")...which is where most films fall over...I've simply seen to many scripts fail because the writer chose not to write with an outline and then got lost in the story..it all comes down to do you want to write because you want to write or do you write because you want to finish and film it?

2. writing a treatment is not needed till after the first draft simply because you don't know what the story is until you have a solid overview

If your method works for you, keep doing it...however if it is not giving you what you want (which I can assume is a finished script) then change, do something different...
everything is painful the first time (or the first few hundred times) but then you get it and it gets easier....
Q

 

[lalyil]

I'd say never stop writing the screenplay to try to do things "the right way."

If I'm tearing through pages like a madman, rocking the script out, I wouldn't dare stop myself and try to outline or otherwise 'formalize' the writing. I just let the keyboard beat the crap out of Final Draft! Outlines be darned!

That's really my best piece of advice on the subject. The main thing I've learned is to never stop writing when I'm actually writing... who knows when the next writers block will come! Cherish the moments!

All the information you are going to get will be based on everyone's personal experience but just to add my two cents:
1. Outlining is crucial..even a basic "this happens and then this happens" will keep you from the desert wasteland of Act Two Part Two (or "when the hero loses it all")...which is where most films fall over...I've simply seen to many scripts fail because the writer chose not to write with an outline and then got lost in the story..it all comes down to do you want to write because you want to write or do you write because you want to finish and film it?

2. writing a treatment is not needed till after the first draft simply because you don't know what the story is until you have a solid overview

If your method works for you, keep doing it...however if it is not giving you what you want (which I can assume is a finished script) then change, do something different...
everything is painful the first time (or the first few hundred times) but then you get it and it gets easier....
Q

See, there are obviously the two main arguements
But I do think I found what's best for me. Doing the outline to what was already written, helps me keeps in charge but doesn't harm the FLOW.

I'll finish it up in the weekend and get back to writing by Monday. Actually had some good ideas last night so wrote some of them down before continuing the outline today.

 

[quitofilmsdotcom]

There are two ways to look at writing a script (IMHO), both of which equate well with taking a journey...
1. You enjoy the ride, so you write as you like, when you like, how you like, double back, rework things, there is no consistent moving forward because you are enjoying the trip..if you get there, when you get there, all good....

2. You enjoy the trip but you want reach your destination with your sanity intact, so you create a road map that details where you are starting from and where you are ending up and the best way to get there....

Is either way better? That all depends on you...nobody can say which is best for you....
In your current situation, I feel you are in the "yeah, this has been fun, but I need to get where I am going..." kinda frame of mind...you have been tooling around the US in your '68 Valiant, life has been good, but now, yeah, now, time to say goodbye to Maggie and get back to school.....so you make your map and hit the road...leaving lots of room open for side trips and noticing objects of interest....

or it could just be it's 1:30AM and I have pulled a 36 hour stint....
best of success, matey
Q

 

[lalyil]

Very nicely put Q, cheers

 

[lalyil]

RESULT!!

I didn't even finish outlining what I've already written but it helped me add in a few scenes that I think were very much needed. Also lowered the number of scenes in the first 10 pages from 20 to 15! Which I'm very pleased about... in general, I'm in page 23 now!


I need to send just the first 10 pages to someone in the industry at his request but before doing so I'm looking for someone to read them.. JUST THE FIRST 10 PAGES.
Come on, it's not much! Really need proper feedback from someone other than my friends and relatives.
I'd rather not give anything away other than what was already said on the board, would be happy to PM or email. Please only people who can send constructive feedback.