24p vs 25p for international release

[steven.]

Hi all,

Other threads about this have been unclear. One person says one thing, the other days a different think, and then they end up arguing. I am going to be shooting a feature film in Europe using an Arri Alexa. It will be released both in the US and Europe.

Does anyone have any experience with this? Theory is nice and all, which is what most of the posts about this topic have been referencing, but I know that in reality things are different. Would it make sense for me to shoot 24p or 25p if there is an equal number of festivals on ether side of the pond that this film will be screened at? The eventual distribution method is VOD or Netflix, but festivals is where it will make its heaviest splash.

Again, I appreciate any response from people with actual experience on this topic rather than theoretical textbook solutions quoting numbers, as many previous responses have been.

 

[jax_rox]

Where are you shooting? If in Europe with 50Hz power, you'll have a lot less issue with lights/flicker if you shoot 25fps. I'd be inclined to shoot at the native frame rate for where the majority of the shoot and post will be taking place. Unless the post house or audio facility were to advise me otherwise. I've shot many films at 25fps and had them played at US festivals.

There will be a slight speed change depending on which way you go - 24fps will speed up slightly to conform; and vice-versa. That might also be a consideration - a slow-paced drama might have it's pacing ruined by a 4% slowdown, for example.

 

[steven.]

Where are you shooting? If in Europe with 50Hz power, you'll have a lot less issue with lights/flicker if you shoot 25fps. I'd be inclined to shoot at the native frame rate for where the majority of the shoot and post will be taking place. Unless the post house or audio facility were to advise me otherwise. I've shot many films at 25fps and had them played at US festivals.

There will be a slight speed change depending on which way you go - 24fps will speed up slightly to conform; and vice-versa. That might also be a consideration - a slow-paced drama might have it's pacing ruined by a 4% slowdown, for example.

I am shooting in Europe, and it is a slow paced drama. Lots of static or slow dollies.

 

[AudioPostExpert]

Other threads about this have been unclear. One person says one thing, the other days a different think, and then they end up arguing. I am going to be shooting a feature film in Europe using an Arri Alexa.

I don't know why other threads have been unclear or there has been any misunderstanding as there has only been one standard feature film frame rate in the last 80+ years, 24fps. The only real exception I know of is some recent blockbusters which have been filmed (and screened) in 3D at 48fps. Europe, America or anywhere else in the world, the standard for feature film is 24fps.

Of course, if we're talking about a video (rather than a feature film), then there are several possible frame rates but 24fps is NOT one of them!

G

 

[harmonica44]

Europe has accepted lots of 24 fps movies from North America in the past though, so would it be a problem now?

 

[Kaliper Media]

You're saying that Netflix and Broadcast VOD are the ultimate destinations? There's not even a discussion to be had. AudioPostExpert is exactly correct. 24fps. Your distributor will require this frame rate. No doubt, no question, no theory.

Hope that helps.

 

[AudioPostExpert]

You're saying that Netflix and Broadcast VOD are the ultimate destinations? There's not even a discussion to be had. AudioPostExpert is exactly correct. 24fps. Your distributor will require this frame rate. No doubt, no question, no theory.

For film festivals (screening in a cinema) you are correct, 24fps, no question. For VOD we are not talking about a feature film but a feature length video, in which case the film frame rate of 24fps would almost certainly not be appropriate. A distributor for (HD) VOD could require 23.976fps, 25fps or an interlaced format such as 50i (50 fields per sec) or 60i (59.94 fields per sec). In the case of video (as opposed to theatrical film) the OP would need to get the specifications required by the individual distributor.

G

 

[jax_rox]

APE - for a case where a film were to be shot and posted with locked in distribution in PAL land, but only a potential/hope for distribution in the US, would you still say shoot 24p? Has it become a non-issue with modern editing technology?

I've personally rarely shot in anything but 25p timebase, but the majority of distribution I've seen for the films I've shot has been local (with a few international and US film festivals - but I wasn't really privy to the process of preparation for submission and exhibition at those festivals).

 

[AudioPostExpert]

APE - for a case where a film were to be shot and posted with locked in distribution in PAL land, but only a potential/hope for distribution in the US, would you still say shoot 24p? Has it become a non-issue with modern editing technology?

If it's for theatrical release, 24fps, always, regardless of where. If it's for TV or video (in PAL land) then 25fps (50i). The problem arises if you are looking for both theatrical distribution and TV, in which case you're going to need two different frame rates, or maybe not!? If by theatrical distribution you really mean film festival/s, it's going to need some research on the part of the filmmaker. This is because the newer (SMPTE) DCP spec allows for a range of frame rates; standard film rate (24fps) and video rates (25, 23.976, 29.97, 59.94i), the older (DCI) DCP spec only allows for the film frame rate (24fps). So, if for example you're in "PAL land" and you're looking for TV distribution and screening at a festival and your research reveals that the festival/s you want to enter all support the SMPTE DCP spec, then you might as well film in 25fps and not make different frame rate versions. If going for wider theatrical distribution than just the odd festival or two, I would stick with shooting in 24fps and then make a 25fps version later.

Modern (computer/software) technology hasn't made creating different frame rate versions a complete non-issue. There can still be issues and artefacts, both with the picture and the sound but usually it's nothing too serious and of course it's a lot cheaper than telecine used to be.

G

 

[harmonica44]

Forgive my lack of knowledge but why would TV want a higher frame rate than 24? Lots of movies are shown on TV and they are 24 fps, especially movies shot on film, unless they are digitally converted?

 

[AudioPostExpert]

Lots of movies are shown on TV and they are 24 fps ...

Really? How did they do that when TV couldn't even display frames? In other words, the statement I've quoted should read; "Lots of movies are shown on TV and they are NEVER 24fps"!

Forgive my lack of knowledge but why would TV want a higher frame rate than 24?

TV might look similar to film but is a completely different technology! Historically, with film you passed 24 pictures (frames) in front of a bright light which projected the frames on to a big screen. TV didn't even use frames, it used "fields", which were broadcast on an analogue carrier signal and were drawn/scanned by a CRT (Cathode Ray Tube). The result is that there are two basic "speeds", film speed and video speed. Different countries/regions developed different solutions to the limitations of TV broadcast technology (NTSC, PAL, SECAM, etc.), which is why different regions have different TV broadcast specifications but for film there was only one worldwide standard from the late 1920's onwards (24fps, 35mm film). While TV technology has changed significantly over the years, it was essential to maintain backwards compatibility which is why film speed and video speed still exist.

You need to go and do some research on this subject; film speed, video speed and frame/field rates. If you don't, one day you are going to find yourself with problems and no idea what caused them and no idea how to solve them!

The OP needs to be a little careful because 24p usually denotes 24fps at video speed rather than film speed. 24fps at video speed is not actually 24fps, it's 23.976fps! AFAIK, most DSLRs and consumer cameras only operate at video speed, not at film speed. However, the Alexa (mentioned by the OP) can operate at film and video speeds and does not use the potentially confusing "24p" nomenclature but provides recording and project options in actual frame rates.

G

 

[harmonica44]

Okay thanks this is good to know! Would a film festival care if a movie was shot on a DSLR that only show at video speed? Does this mean that all use DSLR users have to convert from 23.976, to 24 if we want to show our stuff at a festival?

I ask this cause I too am going to shoot a short soon, and wonder if my video speed DSLR is acceptable, if you want to hopefully get into festivals. Some sights say you can do it without damaging the quality, but some say no, there will be sacrifices, so what is it?

 

[AudioPostExpert]

Would a film festival care if a movie was shot on a DSLR that only show at video speed?

Many of the smaller festivals are not actually film festivals, they are really video festivals which call themselves "film festivals" because it sounds more impressive! The bigger film festivals are actually film festivals and require a film (rather than a video) for exhibition. The bigger festivals wouldn't care what you shot your film on or what speed it is but if you supply a video when they have specified a film, they simply won't screen it, they'll just dump it and screen someone else's film.

Does this mean that all use DSLR users have to convert from 23.976, to 24 if we want to show our stuff at a festival?

That depends on the festival. Is it really a video festival rather than a film festival? If so then shoot and print a video at 23.976, 29.97 or 25 (depending on the video format they require). If it's an actual film festival, you need to check with the festival and get a copy of their exhibition specifications. As I said above in reply to Jax, if the festival screens in a cinema which has updated to the SMPTE DCP spec then they can screen video speed content. Bare in mind that there are other differences between film and video besides just the speed (actual frame rate) and you would still have to comply with those differences rather than just supplying a video for exhibition.

G

 

[gorillaonabike]

I'm just surprised a dude with an Arri and the budget to shoot a feature film is asking this question! Makes me feel better about all the questions I ask!

Otherwise, in answer to H44's questions: First, shoot an amazing, outstanding short then worry about the technical specs of getting it into a fest. You can always mess with it so it conforms to the technical specs of the festivals which publish their tech specs.

Shot my last short in 30p and just conformed it which had a few challenges but was generally OK. The tricky bit was shooting a short that was good enough to get into a decent level, international fest. That was much trickier.

 

[AudioPostExpert]

I'm just surprised a dude with an Arri and the budget to shoot a feature film is asking this question!

Yes, it doesn't bode well!

Otherwise, in answer to H44's questions: First, shoot an amazing, outstanding short then worry about the technical specs of getting it into a fest. You can always mess with it so it conforms to the technical specs of the festivals which publish their tech specs.

I think that's probably reasonable advice to a beginner (like H44). It's worth mentioning though that it's singularly poor advice for an experienced filmmaker looking to get into one of the higher tier film festivals or looking to create something of commercial or near commercial quality (like the OP).

G