How many shorts before a feature?

H

harmonica44

I wouldn't mind making a couple of more with real actors, but only a couple. The reason is that it takes too much time to make one. My first took half a year and still counting, from pre to post. Some actors dropped out and I spent almost every moment of my free time outside of work looking for replacements more than once. Not that I mind, but I ended up closing almost all of my free schedule, and I missed out on getting possibly more experience in other ways. The time it takes to make a short I could be out there practicing with my equipment, or making myself available to work on other people's if I get emails back.

I was too busy trying to finish the short and get everything ready, that I didn't even have time to practice in the mean the time. Some make 10 shorts with actors before their first feature, but for me, that could take 10 years, depending on what goes right and wrong. So I think it's best to maybe only make two more tops, and just practice otherwise, and make myself available to hopefully get on sets, and learn there, and learn more.

But then when the time comes to self fund my own feature, will I have problems finding crew to want to work with me, and securing actors and contracts, if I have only made a couple of shorts, and the rest of the time I just say I practiced? What do you think?
 
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The answer you seek is between none and never.

Some make a feature right off the bat, others fill a dump truck with shorts and never make a feature.

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Let me ask you this: Can you write a feature script that will use far less crew and a lot more you than you did with your short? Can you write a script with only one or two key characters and a dozen or so short roles (using actors that you can shoot in a day and never use them again)? If you answer yes to both of these questions, shoot a feature now.
 
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How many shorts before a feature?
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harmonica44 said:
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But then when the time comes to self fund my own feature, will I have problems finding crew to want to work with me, and securing actors and contracts, if I have only made a couple of shorts, and the rest of the time I just say I practiced? What do you think?
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None of us have a crystal ball to see the future and I only use the Force for mindtricks ;)

When you have made more short, you will probably know more people.
If you get better every time, more people will want to work with you.

You can also practise by making a musicvideo (1 maybe 2 days of shooting; the band won't desert the project and you can let them arrange locations, mua, extras. So you can focus on the idea, shooting and editing) or a short atmospheric video with no people or just a model when the sun is low. (Fashion/fragrance-commercial-like stuff). Keep things simple: not everything yo do to practise needs to result in a video, but when you do simple stuff good: put it online. This way you can show your skills without spending 6 months on a short.
Saying you have practised can trigger maybe a few persons to help you out the first or second time, but in the end you portfolio should show what you can do.

Besides making corporate stuff for a living, I sometimes make very short projects (between 1 and 2 minutes, no more than 2 or 3 weeks of work) for fun and to get to know new people. At the moment when I announce on facebook 'I'm thinking about a new project', several actresses and makeup artists offer to help.
That was not the case in the beginning: I the beginning I had to search and ask* a lot of people, before I could just shoot a simple thing where I needed 1 actress and a MUA.
But the simple thing turned out to be a good start, so the second time it was still not easy, but is was easier to get cast and crew together.
(* When I'm casting people: I search a lot but only ask a few people. I always try to get 'the 1' that fits the picture, but sometimes you have to compromise.)
Offcourse I already had an 'extensive' portfolio to show my technical and creative skills, but nevertheless: when your skills improve and your portfolio grows, it will become easier to get cast and crew together.
(I still ask friends to help out on these short projects, btw.)
 
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Zensteve said:
1.7
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:clap:

I don't really think there is an answer to this. Experience is key, but there's nothing to say once you move onto features you can't still make shorts. My guess would be once you make a short that you can genuinely say couldn't be any better, in both production and story (don't forget, your practising your storytelling as well), you're ready to make a feature. But unless your first one is amazing don't expect to be instantly making that jump. There's a lot to learn from shorts, that's why so many great directors make them first and learn.

On a more practical level, as shorts are much cheaper to produce you can create a solid body of work to take in front of investors/distributors/collaborators/whoever to show what you can do and create a solid springboard to your feature.

There's no rush, if you look at some great directors who recently made great feature debuts, you'd be surprised how few are fresh faced twentysomethings.
 
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More than this:
0807262054271bp_glass_.jpg



Oh. Wait.
You said shoRts, not shots.
I dunno.

Maybe when you have a feature worthy story, and the money, and the marketing, and the technical skills to not waste the money and marketing? :huh:
 
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GuerrillaAngel said:
The answer you seek is between none and never.

Some make a feature right off the bat, others fill a dump truck with shorts and never make a feature.

------

Let me ask you this: Can you write a feature script that will use far less crew and a lot more you than you did with your short? Can you write a script with only one or two key characters and a dozen or so short roles (using actors that you can shoot in a day and never use them again)? If you answer yes to both of these questions, shoot a feature now.
Click to expand...

Out of the scripts I have written it has been hard coming up with a feature that has that minimal amount of characters. A lot of my ideas are thrillers, but it's hard to keep a thriller going and have it make logical sense without bringing in more characters. I have one in mind with the least amount of characters that would be the least difficult for me to pull off for a feature.

WalterB said:
None of us have a crystal ball to see the future and I only use the Force for mindtricks ;)

When you have made more short, you will probably know more people.
If you get better every time, more people will want to work with you.

You can also practise by making a musicvideo (1 maybe 2 days of shooting; the band won't desert the project and you can let them arrange locations, mua, extras. So you can focus on the idea, shooting and editing) or a short atmospheric video with no people or just a model when the sun is low. (Fashion/fragrance-commercial-like stuff). Keep things simple: not everything yo do to practise needs to result in a video, but when you do simple stuff good: put it online. This way you can show your skills without spending 6 months on a short.
Saying you have practised can trigger maybe a few persons to help you out the first or second time, but in the end you portfolio should show what you can do.

Besides making corporate stuff for a living, I sometimes make very short projects (between 1 and 2 minutes, no more than 2 or 3 weeks of work) for fun and to get to know new people. At the moment when I announce on facebook 'I'm thinking about a new project', several actresses and makeup artists offer to help.
That was not the case in the beginning: I the beginning I had to search and ask* a lot of people, before I could just shoot a simple thing where I needed 1 actress and a MUA.
But the simple thing turned out to be a good start, so the second time it was still not easy, but is was easier to get cast and crew together.
(* When I'm casting people: I search a lot but only ask a few people. I always try to get 'the 1' that fits the picture, but sometimes you have to compromise.)
Offcourse I already had an 'extensive' portfolio to show my technical and creative skills, but nevertheless: when your skills improve and your portfolio grows, it will become easier to get cast and crew together.
(I still ask friends to help out on these short projects, btw.)
Click to expand...

I know what you mean, the more shorts, the more of a portfolio. It's just that doing them (with friends' help, that know less than me), editing and pre-production, takes a lot of time. I could do one short a year but it would be maybe 10 years to get 10 shorts made. Is that normal for you people as well, to want to take that long?
 
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Things to consider:

What does your wallet say about a feature?

Is anyone willing to pay money to see your shorts?

If you want to make a feature, see if you can line up a distributor first. See what a distributor says about your shorts. If not, can you financially recover from making a feature if everything wrer to go wrong? Forget "Potential to make money." A real investor walks away from aspiring filmmakers who talk that way. They want a nuts and bolts way of getting their money back.

Ten years agao, a letter of intent from HBO to broadcast a filler movie made by an independent movie could get a bank to pay as much as $2 Milllion with a loan because HBO would pay that much to some independent producers. I met 2 producers who got paid that much by HBO.

Before you start a script, think of the market you are writing the script for and if you can afford to shoot it, if you have to fund it out of your own pocket.
 
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harmonica44 said:
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I know what you mean, the more shorts, the more of a portfolio. It's just that doing them (with friends' help, that know less than me), editing and pre-production, takes a lot of time. I could do one short a year but it would be maybe 10 years to get 10 shorts made. Is that normal for you people as well, to want to take that long?
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When I talk about short projects, I mean really short projects to train your skills (storytelling, directing, camera, editing and grading) and have fun.
Not real shorts. You don't have to make things difficult every time :)
Some short projects I did around easter:
2009: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2Ob2XCeoME (shot in 6 hours, all dutch, total crew & cast: 3)
2010: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUQC9-PH_KA (shot on 1 long day, subtitled for my foreign friends ;) )
2011: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4y9WeLP0rY (first half shot on day 1 (1 delayed actress resulted in less shooting time and even crappier fighting :P), second half on an afternoon, all dutch and a lot of nonsense ;) This one was quite some work in both preproduction and post)
2012: http://vimeo.com/39208678 (shot in 1 day, subtitled, less FX than in 2011, but more storytelling)

Believe me: I don't spend months on these projects.
Ok, I admit I start thinking about the script months ahead, but the rest is done within a period of 3 weeks or shorter.

When I ask friends/family without experience to help, I don't ask them to shoot or record sound.
I ask them to drive the car in the background, to carry stuff, to 'make rain', stop traffic, do some minor acting, etc. Crucial crew positions are filled with more experienced people; in the 2010 example that means I directed and shot it, one of my best friends (a filmmaker as well) did audio and lights.

(Btw, I'm don't have real plans to do a feature. Funding it is a hell in The Netherlands. I have some ideas for longer 'real' shorts, but I'm not in a hurry.
 
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harmonica44 said:
Out of the scripts I have written it has been hard coming up with a feature that has that minimal amount of characters. A lot of my ideas are thrillers, but it's hard to keep a thriller going and have it make logical sense without bringing in more characters.
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Let me give you an idea off the top of my head . . . a sadist cab driver - one main character, two secondary characters (let's say a wife and a boss) and a dozen fares (that he turns into zombies, or sells to Taco Bell). With no more than two actors in a scene at any given time, you can shoot the scenes with the fares in a day each, the scenes with the secondary characters over a long weekend each, and shots of the driver alone at your leisure. Spread this out over 6 to 8 months to allow for ample prep time before each shoot.

Basically what you're doing is shooting a bunch of "short films" that will edited into one feature. Don't get sidetracked with comments here about large crews and cutting edge gear. If your story is entertaining, and you avoided basic filmmaking blunders, you'll find a level playing field (usually) at festivals and a chance to earn back some of your investment via dowloads and DVD sales.
 
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It's very subjective: for some, maybe four or five. For others, who knows how much!

On a related note, I showed a few shorts I made to a small production company around here and got an interview offer to co-direct a small but full feature! I can't tell you how excited I am!
 
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Good for you!

The best script I have for low budget, I tried writing as many scenes as I could with only two characters each. A lot of scenes would logically have to have more. The scene with the most for example is a large riot of protesters the main character has to make his way through without getting hurt and get to a certain place before it's too late. It would be hard to find actors for the protesters, but I was thinking maybe I could either use stock footage, color correct it to look the same, and have very tight shots of the actor as he is supposedly running through and rely mostly on the sound of the protesters. That's one thing. One thing I could do to save money is to play one of the main characters. I have been told I'm good actor before in high school and to everyone who has seen parts of my short. It saves on hiring an extra main actor if I do it for free, and I know I will see it all the way through.

Well I would like to make more shorts, but I want to make shorter shorts to get more practice doing different things, without having to do devote near as much time to preparing and post production, and have more free time to do more shooting, and working on other people's things for experience. So would distributors care if I had a few one minute on average skits in my portfolio, or would they want actual longer short stories, with a beginning, middle, and end? I don't think my current short will be good enough to show investors and distributors once edited and done. The big mistake I made was that the camera is too still most of the time, unlike most modern movies, unless that won't bother them.
 
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Guerrilla is right, it's about story, not elaborate scenes. If you can't think of small cast movie ideas login to Netflix. hulu of whatever and watch a classic film. Example Hitchcock's Rope http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0040746/
I count NINE actors not counting 'Hitch" walking down the street. ;)

GuerrillaAngel said:
Let me give you an idea off the top of my head . . . a sadist cab driver - one main character, two secondary characters (let's say a wife and a boss) and a dozen fares (that he turns into zombies, or sells to Taco Bell). With no more than two actors in a scene at any given time, you can shoot the scenes with the fares in a day each, the scenes with the secondary characters over a long weekend each, and shots of the driver alone at your leisure. Spread this out over 6 to 8 months to allow for ample prep time before each shoot.

Basically what you're doing is shooting a bunch of "short films" that will edited into one feature. Don't get sidetracked with comments here about large crews and cutting edge gear. If your story is entertaining, and you avoided basic filmmaking blunders, you'll find a level playing field (usually) at festivals and a chance to earn back some of your investment via dowloads and DVD sales.
Click to expand...
 
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In my opinion, it doesn't matter how many shorts you should do before tackling a feature.

I worked in front of and behind the camera for a few years to get hands on experience. Then I scrounged up 8K and made a feature right off the bat.

There's nothing easy about making a movie, you just have to do it.
 
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For a "small" film you can try "Book of Love."

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0376006/fullcredits#cast

The "real" answer is when you can do things instinctively. How many dozens (hundreds?) of questions did you pose on this forum just for one short?

You need to do one more short, but this time you ask a question only when you hit a brick wall. Then, when you do ask the question, you list everything you have tried and has failed to satisfy you. Then do a few more and only ask when you need creative inspiration or have hit the frustration wall head-on at 100mph or have had a great couple of days.

Do you have any idea how many hundreds of hours I practiced piano by the time I reached high school, and how many more during the next four years? And after that the hours increased. I had teachers and coaches, and I got lots of advice - good and bad - from peers and long-time pros. I had been gigging and practicing for 20+ years before I played on a big stage (Beacon Theatre, NYC) at the age of 28. And guess what? I wasn't nervous, just blown away by the great equipment and the professional atmosphere. But I put in thousands of hours of practicing, and hundreds (maybe thousands) of gigs in dive bars, HS gymnasiums, and town concerts, and endless jam sessions and recording sessions.

I had a dozen shorts under my belt before I felt I even had a grasp on the basics of audio post. And I already had the technical background; I knew my mics, pres and recording techniques. I did two dozen more before I thought I was competent at the job.

I guess what I'm saying is you are ready to tackle a feature when you're not asking technical questions but rather asking artistic/creative questions. Work on other projects, even if you're only an extra; it's amazing how much you pick up just from being there.
 
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harmonica44 said:
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So would distributors care if I had a few one minute on average skits in my portfolio, or would they want actual longer short stories, with a beginning, middle, and end?
...........
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You are still trying to find the shortcut.
By now you should know there is no ultimate shortcut: you need experience.
Just make stuff, get better and only keep the best things in your portfolio.
At this moment your main concern is not what distributors want to see in your portfolio, but getting more experience and building a portfolio is.
After december 22, when we discover the world hasn't ended, you can start thinking about what you want to make, what your portfolio needs to interest distributors and how to achieve that.
By that time you'll have more experience, more connections and a portfolio to encourage people to join your projects.
 
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