This is an interesting study

I've seen so many different takes on this and as usual it all depends on the agenda of author.

As usual there are lies, damn lies and statistics.

The key areas of contention seem to be what people are actually comparing.

With HD, projected via a cinema HD projector, you get a consistent quality from master to screen -- but in theory a lower resolution than film. The problem is that not all digital projection systems are equal -- so even a perfect HD image won't guarantee a perfect on screen picture.

And with film, even though the negative resolution is higher than HD, every transfer degrades the image and film prints loose picture quality with handling.

And although I hate using the Blair Witch as a reference point -- if nothing else it did establish that picture quality is almost never the issue.

Now bearing in mind that the final deliverly will be DVD for most end users -- so the the whole damn thing is going to loose the vast majority of the information that comprised the image in the first place it all gets a but moot.
 
I aplogise in advance -- but I need to have a little rant about this subject. (before flying out of the country for two weeks) Not because of the rant -- LOL!

Serious face on!

For indies the format debate is never what it really seems, that is, a technical evaluation of production choices.

This is because the real evaluation isn't about whether the format will do the job or not -- it's about cost.

It seems like everyone spends all their energy trying to make films on the lowest possible budgets.

For indies, if you could make cinema release movies on a $200 camera it would be heaven.

All too rarely do people go -- actually for the look I want with this film, or the way I want to work with the cast in this film I'm going to use X format.

DVC doesn't mean Do it Very Cheap! Although I'll admit that I still suffer from this thinking.

My gut feeling is that playing with DV is a great way of improving your craft.... but when it comes time to make something that you want to play in a cinema, then the mentality towards production has to change.

Where it needs to change most is giving up on the idea that there is no funding for indie films -- there is -- providing the product is right. And that's the core of the matter, really.

Blair Witch showed that if you movie is good enough, no one will give a crap what you film it with.

You see, I completely agree with this statement -- the only thing I'll add is that IF your movie is good enough, then you'll get the production budget to shoot it on the right format for the project!

Biggest problem most indies have is fear of taking their project to the market place, because deep down they believe it's not good enough. [I've suffered from this too] So we don't look for the $3M we need to make the film right, instead we try to make it for less than $1000 :lol: [I'm laughing because for the last four months I've been writing a book called "$1000 Spielberg", which explains exaclty how to do that -- Oh the irony!]

Yes, there are always going to be times when you match the production to the budget -- all I'm saying is that it shouldn't be the first port of call.

Let me give you a concrete example -- I've been working on a feature than I intend to shoot this autumn called "Out of the Dark" -- because money has been tight and I'd lost some confidence after No Place, I'd planned to shoot it as a No Budget camcorder movie -- then a week ago I realised that I wasn't even trying to raise investment for the film -- even though I had developed a commercially viable product and an excellent marketing strategy -- in the week since having this epihany -- since I started taking my own work seriously again -- I've found three different routes to fund the project to completion with a $750,000 plus budget -- one or more of them will pan out IF I get the script right -- one of the routes also comes with distribution attached!

Now as it happens Out of The Darks is an under $1M dollar film -- it's that kind of project -- but I'm confident that if it had needed $3M, then if would have been possible to raise it.

Oh... by the way... In case you hadn't worked it out... I'm ranting at myself. :lol:
 
At this point, the typical audience cannot see the difference between HD and 35mm. Even professionals have a hard time telling them apart. We go through this all the time at NYU ("Was this shot on film or video?").

Based on this, the debate is moot. 16mm, 35mm, DV, and HD are all tools of the filmmaker. The question is not which format is best, but rather, which format is best for your project?

I agree with this completely.
 
Excellent points, Clive. I would add, since I just went through this myself on my first feature film, that it's not necessarily about lack of confidence in a project. I'm used to working by myself or with small crews. I'm reluctant, basically to a fault, to add more people to deal with. So I like to keep things small because to me small means managability and control. Small also means fewer people to answer to. There are downsides to this way or working of course, and it's probably not the way I'll do it next time. I think it worked for this project but that remains to be seen in the final film. My next project is already on a bigger scale and we'll see how that goes.
 
Clive - I am so encouraged and happy for you! I'm glad it is perking up... if at all possible please run a FLOG for all to see through the process so we can watch it unfold. Also dont forget to start recording some DV of you putting it all together!


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At this point, the typical audience cannot see the difference between HD and 35mm. Even professionals have a hard time telling them apart. We go through this all the time at NYU ("Was this shot on film or video?").

Ok here's my problem with this. On a 20" TV, thats true. As we get to theater projection this is absolutely false. In most circumstances you can tell the difference between the two. But let us understand something.

The look of film is DIFFERENT. It works different. Light plays with the 35mm optics and burns the celluloid. There are no pixels, but there is grain caused by the manufacturing process of film, and made more or less visible by exposure and processing. Further, film is not just progressive, it is full frame progressive, and has a shutter variable which can alter footage even more. Film has an entirely different exposure range than video does. It also has the ability to be heavily tweaked after being processed, similar to gamma on uncompressed video. Lastly, film and its associated lenses have known artifacts - scratches, specs, flecks, anamorphic lens flares, etc.

Digital contains no grain, instead it contains pixels which capture individual pixel color, providing a clean, perfect image every time. A CCD or CMOS cannot be replaced to provide more or less light, such as you get with film in the difference between 500T rated at 800 or 50D rated at 25D. But, the built in exposure range in higher end cameras is usually sufficient. Progressive scan means the camera scans one line at a time, not full frame. Only on very high end digital cameras will you find variable frame rates. Image manipulation is of course MUCH easier with a digital camera. While you could achieve a similar effect with filters with a film camera, simply white balancing one way or the other proves how easy it is to adjust in the digital realm vs. film.

But since we're talking LOOK here, I hope I made the point, the two capture differently, and do in fact LOOK different. And that is not a bad thing. With more and more reality type features being made, I think nothing conveys reality more than the window-view that digital captures. When making images that are more painted to achieve effect, I think film acquisition will remain king. In the end, its not really much more expensive than considering using a Genesis, assuming you could actually get a Genesis. Otherwise you're talking about shooting HD, which is about 1/4 the resolution of 35mm at least in acquisition.

ALSO, we're not talking necessarily in most cases about shooting for the audience when we're talking about shooting format. Chances are, as good as your movie is, it won't be so amazing that it sets the world on fire like Napoleon Dynamite or Blair Witch, or any of the others. If it generates some BUZZ then you might be entertaining some distributors. And at this point in time, if you have a 35mm print of your film that has no visual or audio technical issues, thats like walking onto a car lot with good credit and $5k down in your pocket. If you're coming in with anything less, it had better be DAMN good to get theatrical distribution. And even then, the film will have to be reworked to a large extent (Robert Rodriguez doesnt mention that in his El Mariachi budget, neither does 28 days later talk about how much they spent, nor open water) for your deliverables.

To conclude, yes HD to a 35mm print is bottom line to consider yourself on even footing when it comes to theatrical and indirectly, video distribution. Anything less and it had better be earth shattering if it is going to theaters. I'm not making it up. Thats how it works.
 
I've got a counter rant clive:

You are looking at cost as the primary component to the DV vs. Film indie argument. I am a low budget indie and FWIW, I'd rather spend what $$ I get developing sets and props and costume. On this shoot, I've gotten some really professional, Cinemagraphic footage using DV. If I can get the same quality out of DV, wouldn't it be fiscally prudent to take your 750K and apply that toward what's in front of the camera? There's where you're going to show the production value. With a XL2 or a DVX100b, you can get footagge that will blow up acceptably for the audience. If you spend that money getting better actors than you'd normally be able to afford, you'll end up with a better product. You've been saying it all along clive, don't short change yourself because 35mm is "How it's done". Don't think outside the box either, screw the box. Given a good script and a 750K budget, I can give you twice the production value on DV than you can get me on film.

So, maybe it is about cost, but not necessarily straight too expensive cost, but opportunity cost (econ 101). As with any production, if you spend 1000$ on x, you take it away from y. So if it's more important to you to film an empty set on 35mm than to pay a production designer, carpenter and painter, your final movie will reflect that.

Full Disclosure: My most recent shoot was DV and micro-budget (my pocket), so everything that was spent was absolutely necessary. The footage I've seen from prosumer HD cams (specifically the Canon XL-H1 and the JVC HD100) really start to blur the lines between digital and film. If shot with a 35mm adaptor and Working with the limitations inherent to digital rather than wishing it was film, you can have your audience:
A)not caring what format
B)not knowing what format

Where do you want to spend your money, in front of or behind the camera?

I presented this thread not to fan the flames of the format war, but to smack against the main arguments against Digital. I saw "Once upon a time in mexico" in the theater. I didn't know it was shot digitally until I got the DVD and watched the BTS. Any theatrical release currently will be printed to 35mm at some point, but the initial capture is becoming academic.

<edit>Any discussion of me vs. you is also purely academic for the sake of the debate here, not a reflection of my feelings twoard you.</edit>
 
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A quick hunched over the laptop in the airport counter/ counter rant. [bad sentence I'm not IN the airport counter - I gave that up when I stopped drinking 16 years ago]

The assumption you're making is that with $750,000 that I'll choose to shot on film.

When to get the look that I want for this movie I'll need to shot on either Digibeta (my least favorite digital format, but perfect for what I've got planned in post) or DVCPro50 ... which I love to bits.

My point is that instead of thinking I've got a $750,000 budget do I spend that in front or behind the camera? -- what you do is work out what you need to spend to get the end result you want (So right actors, right format, right spend on costume and practical effects, right money on music) -- then make sure that the film you're making is commercially worth that spend.

So it doesen't matter whether the budget is $4,000 - $40,000 or $4M

It's perfectly OK to shoot on DV, mini-dv, HDV, HD, 16mm, 35mm or even imax -- but I just think that the choice of format should be a creative one -- not driven by the budget -- and I don't think the budget should be driven by fear of going to the market.

I'm completely with Bebblebrox on this

I like to work with small crews as well -- it increases the pace on set -- which keeps the actors fresh -- but small crews doesn't have to mean small budgets.

The only problem with larger budget probuctions, especially where investors and distribution companies are involved is that the golden rule is "The guy with the wallet is always going to end up getting their way"

So, I guess that if control is the most important thing for you one set -- then it has to be your wallet that controls the shoot.

The other thing to remember is that I'm only talking about me and my choices -- I'm feeling the need to raise my game at the moment -- get back out there and do some business :) I think it might be the Siberian Ginsing the wife's been putting in my tea! :lol:
 
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I'm excited to see your yang up ;) about filmmaking again! I wasn't saying you were wrong, just making debate. I still prefer digital for its ability to let me spend my money (hobbyist so far) in front of the camera. I'm a small crew person as well (not a SMALL crew person, but a small crew PERSON). I absolutely agree with your arguments. Format should be a matter of artistic choice, not budget. But if you are shooting without a budget, spend your money wisely...generally you can get footage that reeks professionalism even from a crappy little DV cam if you work within the confines of the format and the camera.
 
generally you can get footage that reeks professionalism even from a crappy little DV cam if you work within the confines of the format and the camera.

I completely agree.

PS

I'm back from Croatia, but up to my eyes chasing a script deadline, so more lurking that contributing for a while.
 
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