The Power of Cinema

The sad thing is it seemed like they had some sort of budget and just didn't even try.

Why in that town are ONLY white tourists walking around?

But for real they need to calm the hell down. Some shitty trailer got released on YouTube. Take a step back. Breathe.
 
duh, can you say "911" ... yesterdays terrorist attacks have nothing to do with that movie.. I'm sure there's a south park episode that is less flattering To the "prophet\pedophile\slavetrader"
 
Well, just to turn the table a little bit on our Anglo self-righteousness, lettuce suppose what would your local community reaction would be if some local organization or political entity decided to not only turn a blind eye to something absolutely offensive to your sensibilities, a complete affront to to your sense of right and wrong, but also strongly advocated it?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NAMBLA

Shall I go hunt down some men having sex with children videos and post them here?
I mean some really unsubtle grotesque meaty man/child defilement?
Penetration.
Debasement.
Facials.
The whole shebang.

Does merely READING this kinda make you... upset?
Does that kinda make you wanna flame some evil retort back to me just for suggesting it?

Well... What if your local sherrif's department was hosting a party for such?
What if some out of country "guest" was hosting such?

Would members of your community be so tolerant, so spineless as to allow such a show?
I'm pretty sure someone would physically disrupt the proceedings.
Would we be justified? Would we be "right?"



This is the perspective from their eye's.
What we consider entertainment they consider vile offense.

But they are wrong, of course.
And we are right, of course.
 
rayw said:
Well, just to turn the table a little bit on our Anglo self-righteousness, lettuce suppose what would your local community reaction would be if some local organization or political entity decided to not only turn a blind eye to something absolutely offensive to your sensibilities, a complete affront to to your sense of right and wrong, but also strongly advocated it?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NAMBLA

Shall I go hunt down some men having sex with children videos and post them here?
I mean some really unsubtle grotesque meaty man/child defilement?
Penetration.
Debasement.
Facials.
The whole shebang.

Does merely READING this kinda make you... upset?
Does that kinda make you wanna flame some evil retort back to me just for suggesting it?

Well... What if your local sherrif's department was hosting a party for such?
What if some out of country "guest" was hosting such?

Would members of your community be so tolerant, so spineless as to allow such a show?
I'm pretty sure someone would physically disrupt the proceedings.
Would we be justified? Would we be "right?"



This is the perspective from their eye's.
What we consider entertainment they consider vile offense.

But they are wrong, of course.
And we are right, of course.
Click to expand...

Disagreeing, protesting, speaking publicly against and lobbying political representatives on behalf of something you're against is vastly different than rioting, setting fires and torturing/murdering those you disagree with. I'm all for walking a mile in someone else's shoes and trying to understand the issue from their point of view, but murder is murder regardless of how righteous the murderer feels.

Cinema and media in general has the power to move someone deeply, even to the point of starting and end wars. It's something most journalists consider and treat with respect (wether or not they abuse it, they can respect it) but not something that most of us in the industry of entertainment take seriously all the time.

Movements have been made and broken through entertainment though too. Like in the other thread talking about Star Trek having the first on screen interracial kiss. If you're obviously making a statement in favor or against something, you're starting to cross lines between pure entertainment and political satire and even into journalism and should think about the most wise way about going at it.

Everyone's art is going to reflect their worldview to some extent, and that's great. It's something to know going into it though.
 
Is there anything you find intolerant?
What beliefs do you have that would move you to physical action?
Not philosophical discourse amid of generally agreeable fellows.
Hand to weapon action.

What?
Where is your limit to tolerance?
 
It’s an interesting question, ray.

What I can’t understand is killing person “C” because of what
person “A” did. I know there is a point where I would move to
physical action. Putting aside the clear choice (you see a rape
or child molestation in progress and take up a weapon to stop
it) I might very well pick up a weapon and kill a man who
molested a child. What I wouldn’t do is pick up a weapon and
kill a man because another man molested a child.

Paul, how far do you take the “walk a mile” analogy? Do you
try to understand Christians who don’t believe in same sex
marriage? Do you try to understand a man who sexually uses
a child? Not murders a child - just lovingly introduces a 10 year
old to the passion and closeness of sex.

Oh, boy I know this is going to get crazy.
 
Exactly.
This is the sort of stuff political revolutions begin over.

French revolution.
American revolution.
American Civil War.
The rise of Nazism.
Russian revolution.

Paul & I can agree to civil discourse and even pursuing opposing social/political agendas as civilized gentelmen.
Dirty politics and campaigning comes with a certain understanding.

But in asymmetrical warfare, which the powerless are forced to engage in, the clueless hoity-toity just never understand what these peasants are so upset about. They are so... uncivilized.

Yeah... well...



I've been arounf the media enough to know that what happens in the real world and what is published for paying customers isn't exactly always well researched and presented.
Someone somewhere escalated a yelling match into a physical confrontation.
And then the whole hornet's nest went ballistic.

I understand some people get upset over some L.A. cops not being "appropriately" found guilty for beating Rodney King.
I understand people die over soccer game outcomes.

What if half the gross economic output of Texas was appropriated by the Federal government to fund the Christianization of Bumfukistan?
Think Texans would handle all of that in the court system?
I imagine not.
 
Im so glad our (US IS the center of the world) pres went on his "World Apology Tour" sherwererkedgooddidnit

EDIT: more inflammatory comments added:

Yes there is a point where one must take action. Our collective western society, which IS superior to any on earth, has drawn the line IS appropriate. Acting otherwise is barbaric.
 
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Had about six paragraphs typed up then somehow hit the "back button" and lost it all haha. I'll be back later to redo it, but need to get back to work now. Good discussion though, let's keep it up.
 
PaulGriffith said:
Had about six paragraphs typed up then somehow hit the "back button" and lost it all haha. I'll be back later to redo it, but need to get back to work now. Good discussion though, let's keep it up.
Click to expand...
GAHHHH!!!!!
I hate it when I do that.

I'm game.
Promise I won't come setting your house on fire and kill any important family members. :yes:
 
The problem with Rays sheriffs department child abuse example is that nothing is black and white, cut and dried. No, I wouldn't go break it up, because they have guns and I don't, and even if I did, it's one against 150. So my actions would be meaningless and would not help the victims. The other option is to find an alternate legal agency that also has guns, say the FBI. Not only do they have the firepower, they have the authority. Now, I can hear the argument coming "well, what if all cops were crooked?" Now you have changed the argument. The public at large would already know that fact, and there would already be a revolution under way.

Now, the "Did the film cause the attacks" question. Yes, it did, indirectly. They may be fanatics, but the leadership of the extremists are not stupid. They are clever enough to use the film to inflame gullible followers and then steer them in the right direction to cause the desired effect. That's been happening for thousands of years. Stalin called them "useful idiots."

I agree with directorik, why kill person “C” because of what person “A” did? There were riots and other forms of unpleasantness both inside and outside the Islamic world after Salman Rushdie's The Satanic Verses was published. But the one that applies most in this situation is that a fatwa was issued against Rushdie by the Ayatollah of Iran. A fatwa has not (so far) been issued against the filmmaker in question.

As an artist, especially if you are going into satire or commentary involving religion and/or politics (Islam is both, BTW) you must be prepared to accept the consequences. Does the filmmaker have the right under US law to make the film? Absolutely! Should he have made the film is another issue entirely. This puts people like me in a very difficult situation. It is a foundation of the muslim religion that you never, in any way, show a personification of Muhammud. As someone who respects other religions I personally would not have made or worked on such a film. Not out of fear, out of respect. But as Voltaire said, "I may disagree with what you have to say, but I shall defend to the death your right to say it."

The filmmaker in question must take partial responsibility for what has happened, even if through ignorance or stupidity giving ammunition to religious extremists. If he did it intentionally then... Damn, I don't know.

I am not going to comment on the political aspects of this situation as we have all agrees to keep political views out of this forum.
 
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rayw said:
GAHHHH!!!!!
I hate it when I do that.

I'm game.
Promise I won't come setting your house on fire and kill any important family members. :yes:
Click to expand...

Ha! I wouldn't advise you try, I've been at my parents for a bit while gearing up for a big move across state and my dad is pretty "Texan" :)

Rendering/uploading so I have some time now. Back to business..

directorik said:
Paul, how far do you take the “walk a mile” analogy?
Click to expand...

Pretty far. I think it's crucial to understand where people with opposing views are coming from. I'm pretty optimistic, I really believe that there are veery few people who wake up and want to do evil. Most people feel justified in their actions regardless who agrees with them, and most people really want to do the right thing... at least in their eyes. Of course there are exceptions, but yeah. A good example of this, and I'm reluctant to post because it's a political one, is the Pro-Choice vs Pro-Life debate. Both sides genuinely believe they are fighting for the right thing, Pro-choice fighting for an adult's reproductive rights and Pro-Life fighting for an unborn child's right to life. Many on both sides think the opposing view is absolutely disgusting and start throwing words like "anti-woman" and "child-killer" out, but until people can have an intelligent conversation and understand why each side feels right in what they believe no agreement will ever be made.

Where's my personal limit on trying to understand? I'm not sure, I think I'll always try to understand where someone's worldview is stemming from. Where's my personal line in the sand on where physical action should be take place? In most cases, defense of self or of others. Sure, I'll try to understand why a pedophile is a pedophile, but if a situation arises where I need to physically intervene then I will. Restraining a person and hunting a person are two different things though, and torturing/killing someone when there's still reasonable ways to stop them is over the line. It's the difference in hearing the guy down the street is a pedophile and calling the police vs hearing about him, loading your gun and taking care of business yourself. That's why it's a crucial part of our legal system, innocent until proven guilty. Due process exists for a reason.

Ray, if half the gross economic output of Texas was appropriated by the Federal government I'm sure we'd start in the court system, yeah. It wouldn't be war off the bat. If it came down to someone forcibly taking your possessions then I don't think it would be too out of line to defend your and your peer's safety and property. Again, defense is almost always acceptable where offense usually crosses the line. Someone breaks into your house and you shoot him, ok. You think someone is going to break into your house so you go to his and shoot him, not so much.

I'm really not a fan of hypotheticals, it's really hard to judge crazy situations until you're in them. As far as freedoms and what to fight for, fighting for your freedom is great. Your freedom ends where another's begins though. The guys that made the film in question, their freedom of speech trumps the rights of people who killed an ambassador and others to not be offended. I hear stuff I disagree with and find offensive almost daily. I'm what most would call religious, even when people insult what I believe I just shrug it off. Most offensive roots from ignorance, and retaliating in kind just drives people farther apart.
 
I was waiting to see who'd bust out the Voltaire first!

For me the issue is this: you can say anything you want. You can think anything you want. But the moment you take action, involving someone else who does not consent, you've crossed the line. I support the right of NAMBLA to exist and to think and say whatever they want, though I find those ideas repellant. However, the moment that choose to act in a way that the society that they participate in finds objectionable, then they are subject to the consequences of that society.

It saddens me that there are people who cannot see an opinion other than their own, or even someone making fun of their ideas without being driven to violence towards others. Of course, the motto of my religion (and/or cult) of choice is "Fuck 'em if they can't take a joke" and I'm comfortable with my opinion not being the only "right" one.
 
Ray, Josh -- why do you take offense to the National Association of Marlon Brando Look-Alikes?

Also, I agree that before you criticize anyone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way, you are a mile away from them, and you have their shoes.
 
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no, no, it's the Norwegian Advocates of Mildly Boring Literature. Man, they get my goat, mostly for dropping the last letter in the acronym. That's just lazy.
 
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