Hey everyone,
When it comes to spotting a film for music what's your approach?
- Mike
When it comes to spotting a film for music what's your approach?
- Mike
-
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Spotting a film
- Thread starter Mike Marino
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Needless to say, I can only speak for myself, but my best guess is that very few members of this forum have ever actually had a spotting session with a composer. Most ultra-low budget films do not have composers, and if they do, it's often someone they've met online (and possibly geographically unable to have a spotting session with).
At their recommendation (I hired a two-person team), we all sat down to watch the movie, exchanging notes for potential cues and desired feelings for different parts of the film. We paused, rewinded, rewatched, paused, etc., a million times over and over. It was great -- they were active in offering ideas, while listening to what I was striving for, and we had a nice back and forth.
However, in retrospect, I wish I would've insisted that this not be the first time they'd seen the movie. In my opinion, a composer should just watch the locked edit, in it's entirety, in one sitting, simply to get a feel for what the movie is and where it's ultimately heading. And THEN you sit down with the director to work on musical cues.
At their recommendation (I hired a two-person team), we all sat down to watch the movie, exchanging notes for potential cues and desired feelings for different parts of the film. We paused, rewinded, rewatched, paused, etc., a million times over and over. It was great -- they were active in offering ideas, while listening to what I was striving for, and we had a nice back and forth.
However, in retrospect, I wish I would've insisted that this not be the first time they'd seen the movie. In my opinion, a composer should just watch the locked edit, in it's entirety, in one sitting, simply to get a feel for what the movie is and where it's ultimately heading. And THEN you sit down with the director to work on musical cues.
While most of my work is in situations like Cracker Funk describes, I do work with some local filmmakers on occasion. For those projects, we've done spotting sessions. I'll second having everyone watch the final edit (or as close to the final as possible) a few times before getting together to spot. I'll watch it a few times, jotting down notes (usually a couple pages for a short, and far, far more for a feature). Once I have an idea of how I'd score it, I usually send my notes and a rough list of where I think cues should go to my point of contact on the film (usually the director, but sometimes the editor or the producer). If they're local, we'll get together and watch the film while going over the notes.
Hopefully by the end of this, everyone will come to an agreement on what themes and motifs are needed, a general idea of where to use them and which beats are the most important to try and hit.
Hopefully by the end of this, everyone will come to an agreement on what themes and motifs are needed, a general idea of where to use them and which beats are the most important to try and hit.
I'll second (or third) the need to view the locked-off edit before the spotting session/s. Before the locked-off edit is even completed a full copy of the script is very useful to study. BITC is useful for making notes, as is having the guide/temp music with the dialogue and temp SFX on the locked-off edit to get an idea of the Director's intentions.
During spotting I would be noting down exact time-codes for cues as well as notes on the type of entry/exit for each of the music cues (hard, soft, loop, etc.). Deciding where to put music cues is important of course but more important is deciding why! In my experience, it's common for a music cue to have more than just a single function, say the obvious heightening of the emotion of the scene for example. Commonly, a music cue is also required to aid the pace, help to disguise a clunky edit/s, refer to something which has happened or will happen, clarify or obfuscate the plot and/or a number of other functions. This is one of the areas where an experienced film score creator is vastly superior to a music composer! The film score creator should have a good understanding of the "language of film" and should be suggesting ways in which music cues can aid the film, rather than a music composer who may think purely in terms of the places in the film where music cues would sound good.
G
During spotting I would be noting down exact time-codes for cues as well as notes on the type of entry/exit for each of the music cues (hard, soft, loop, etc.). Deciding where to put music cues is important of course but more important is deciding why! In my experience, it's common for a music cue to have more than just a single function, say the obvious heightening of the emotion of the scene for example. Commonly, a music cue is also required to aid the pace, help to disguise a clunky edit/s, refer to something which has happened or will happen, clarify or obfuscate the plot and/or a number of other functions. This is one of the areas where an experienced film score creator is vastly superior to a music composer! The film score creator should have a good understanding of the "language of film" and should be suggesting ways in which music cues can aid the film, rather than a music composer who may think purely in terms of the places in the film where music cues would sound good.
G
Interaction of music and film
This is my view (and I take the perspective from both sides since I've both directed and composed, also it's apart from the technical aspects of getting the length cues and so on):
The music and sounds should breathe with the film, as a wholeness, become an entity, not just be added as a glaze or ornament afterwards.
As a director I would discuss the movie and listen to some ideas or maybe even drafts from the composer early in the process, and tell the composer if it was in line with my intention.
(Luckily, for me, when I have been the director of a few films or theater plays, the composer has been me, and I have understood the intentions of me as a director
.) As a composer working with some other, I would try to remember these aspects, try to respect and grip the director’s vision.
The composer should let the director lead, and try to perceive the underlying emotional intent, but with a good composer the director should be open to the possibility that the music, even a single tone, could add some important value to a scene that could affect how it should/could be cut.
(It could perhaps just be about adding half a second and let an actor’s emotion linger.) With great scores, the movie and the music gets inseparable.
The composing is a creative process, give it time to grow and evolve, let the composer visit the set, meet the characters, let them plant a seed in the composer’s mind.
Maybe I feel this way just because I mostly like a certain kind of movies where music is central.
Hitchcock and Herrmann probably, I'm not sure, worked a bit like this, and I really like those movies and Herrmann’s music. Don't know about Williams/Spielberg but think of Close Encounters, the music is interwoven in the story.
I'm not saying it's impossible to get a good score after a film is all shot and edited. (And of course it all depends on what kind of persons the director and composer are.)
I earlier made some examples, just for fun, on how music can influence images. I just made some very basic but different tunes to a looped spaceship animation. It’s not exactly what the discussion is about here, but it’s a little related. Even a piece of music that is ever so slightly different (wrong or just off) is going to have great impact on the movie. Have a look if you want to. (Last example has a little more twist at the end.)
https://sites.google.com/site/mixxusstudio/film-tv-score-composition
This is my view (and I take the perspective from both sides since I've both directed and composed, also it's apart from the technical aspects of getting the length cues and so on):
The music and sounds should breathe with the film, as a wholeness, become an entity, not just be added as a glaze or ornament afterwards.
As a director I would discuss the movie and listen to some ideas or maybe even drafts from the composer early in the process, and tell the composer if it was in line with my intention.
(Luckily, for me, when I have been the director of a few films or theater plays, the composer has been me, and I have understood the intentions of me as a director
.) As a composer working with some other, I would try to remember these aspects, try to respect and grip the director’s vision.The composer should let the director lead, and try to perceive the underlying emotional intent, but with a good composer the director should be open to the possibility that the music, even a single tone, could add some important value to a scene that could affect how it should/could be cut.
(It could perhaps just be about adding half a second and let an actor’s emotion linger.) With great scores, the movie and the music gets inseparable.
The composing is a creative process, give it time to grow and evolve, let the composer visit the set, meet the characters, let them plant a seed in the composer’s mind.
Maybe I feel this way just because I mostly like a certain kind of movies where music is central.
Hitchcock and Herrmann probably, I'm not sure, worked a bit like this, and I really like those movies and Herrmann’s music. Don't know about Williams/Spielberg but think of Close Encounters, the music is interwoven in the story.
I'm not saying it's impossible to get a good score after a film is all shot and edited. (And of course it all depends on what kind of persons the director and composer are.)
I earlier made some examples, just for fun, on how music can influence images. I just made some very basic but different tunes to a looped spaceship animation. It’s not exactly what the discussion is about here, but it’s a little related. Even a piece of music that is ever so slightly different (wrong or just off) is going to have great impact on the movie. Have a look if you want to. (Last example has a little more twist at the end.)
https://sites.google.com/site/mixxusstudio/film-tv-score-composition
Good discussion; some good takes on this process.
To take things a step further: do you add temp music to your films? Why or why not?
To take things a step further: do you add temp music to your films? Why or why not?
Yes, I have. I might be wrong, but my impression is that this is strictly something that is done to help an editor feel the rythm of a scene, while cutting it. At least that's how I used it, and I believe that's generally how others use it.
Anyway, point being -- it's pretty much for the editor's and director's ears only. Maybe you can show it to the composers, but in my opinion they should be allowed to watch the first rough cut with virgin ears. If you really, for some reason, need a specific tempo, I don't see the harm in mentioning that to them, but I think most composers prefer to just discuss the feelings that we hope to portray.
@Cracker Funk: Interesting take on temp music.
Let me back-track for a minute on spotting. I think spotting is essential...even if it can't be done with the director and composer in the same room. The simple act of two creatives going through a film, putting their ideas down on paper, then comparing notes can really transform the outcome of the film. I think the composer is another actor within the film. He/she has to be able to take direction (from the director) in terms of feelings and emotions.....and craft those directions to move the audience in a particular way. It's almost magical in a sense (when done well)....like any great actor.
With regard to temp music I think it certainly has its pros and cons for both parties, the director and the composer. Temp music allows the director to enhance his/her communication with the composer in terms of the defining/prevailing mood or tone or feeling or emotion of the scene. They can take their description of what they want to happen....then give an example of music that they feel does what they're looking for. The composer can ask questions and dig deeper as to what the director really likes about that piece of music. Is it the strings?....the sad tinge?...the intensity of the BRAAAAMMM?......the use of a flute or clarinet....etc? This gives the composer some footholds/markers as to what the director is thinking.
The downside to temp music can be many things. Most notably a director can get "temp love." They've heard the piece so much, it fits so well (to them at anyway) that it completely boxes the composer in. He/she has no choice but to create a sound-alike version of the temp score. The is a creativity killer for the composer. Bad news. And directors don't mean to do that; they don't want to kill anybody's creativity. It's their baby and the composer....a good one at least....obviously want to be a part of a winning team. He/she WANTS a great looking (and great sounding) baby....err, film.
So directors, just say NO to "temp love." Composers: ask deeper WHAT/WHY questions about what the director likes (and doesn't like about any temp/example music). Communication on all fronts is the key. Now we're talkin'.
Let me back-track for a minute on spotting. I think spotting is essential...even if it can't be done with the director and composer in the same room. The simple act of two creatives going through a film, putting their ideas down on paper, then comparing notes can really transform the outcome of the film. I think the composer is another actor within the film. He/she has to be able to take direction (from the director) in terms of feelings and emotions.....and craft those directions to move the audience in a particular way. It's almost magical in a sense (when done well)....like any great actor.
With regard to temp music I think it certainly has its pros and cons for both parties, the director and the composer. Temp music allows the director to enhance his/her communication with the composer in terms of the defining/prevailing mood or tone or feeling or emotion of the scene. They can take their description of what they want to happen....then give an example of music that they feel does what they're looking for. The composer can ask questions and dig deeper as to what the director really likes about that piece of music. Is it the strings?....the sad tinge?...the intensity of the BRAAAAMMM?......the use of a flute or clarinet....etc? This gives the composer some footholds/markers as to what the director is thinking.
The downside to temp music can be many things. Most notably a director can get "temp love." They've heard the piece so much, it fits so well (to them at anyway) that it completely boxes the composer in. He/she has no choice but to create a sound-alike version of the temp score. The is a creativity killer for the composer. Bad news. And directors don't mean to do that; they don't want to kill anybody's creativity. It's their baby and the composer....a good one at least....obviously want to be a part of a winning team. He/she WANTS a great looking (and great sounding) baby....err, film.
So directors, just say NO to "temp love." Composers: ask deeper WHAT/WHY questions about what the director likes (and doesn't like about any temp/example music). Communication on all fronts is the key. Now we're talkin'.
It's a bit of a vicious circle. Music is often very useful for the picture editor but you can't do music spotting until the Editor has finished editing. The solution is actually quite obvious but rarely employed by indie film makers, often even by those with pretty reasonable budgets: Engage the composer during pre-production, give them a script and have some discussions about the film after they've studied the script. During production, send the composer some rushes and ask them to create a handful of musical sketches (having looped endings is useful), for the basic themes of the film. The picture editor now has something to work with and if anything, "temp love" is now a good thing! The time spent by the composer creating these sketches is not wasted because it makes the spotting much easier/smoother and of course much of the work put into the sketches is reusable and can therefore reduce the often severe time pressures placed on a composer during audio post.
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@AudioPostExpert: You bring some ideal concepts to the table....and I think that's the way it happens for many of the working composers in LA. When they reach a deal agreement for the film (....even if they're only putting together a demo)....it seems many will also spend that next bit of time coming up with different themes (and variations) so that when/if they're chosen it makes the composing process that much easier. I think it also comes down to trust....on both parties, the composer for the director and the director for the composer. Sometimes that's a little more difficult, especially when you're both starting out.
Good discussion here.
- Mike
Good discussion here.
- Mike