Sound (expert) echo help...prob not what you're expecting.

[bez]

Hey guys,
I've got an amazing location (alley) that I want to shoot at however there is an audible echo when speaking loud. I'm curious, if I hire a great sound guy if he'll be able to pick up sound without the echo? I have a great sound guy actually already who's pretty amazing but I don't wanna sound like an idiot asking him this.

Thoughts?

 

[Will Vincent]

You can probably cut down the echos pretty significantly with some well placed sound blankets.

 

[Scorer]

Don't feel like an idiot asking your sound guy (especially if he is really good) his opinion on the matter. If you are directing, and he is the expert in that area, asking him is exactly what you SHOULD do.

 

[Alcove Audio]

Unless you are micing everything REALLY close up (1" to 2" - yes, inches) you are going to get echoes; "Ya canna defy the laws of physics, Captain!" You'll even get it if you use lavs. How much echo you get will depend on how good your PSM/Boom-Op is. A good sound guy/gal can take you from Grand Canyon back to huge Alley.

And don't be afraid to ask questions of your PSM, we're used to people being ignorant about sound. And, after all, that's our job; yours is to direct.

 

[mus]

A little echo in an alley is natural, so it will sound natural

 

[AudioPostExpert]

A little echo in an alley is natural, so it will sound natural

Yes, provided you never need to edit the footage or the dialogue for the entire scene! If there is some editing, then you're only going to be able to edit at the end of the reverb tails otherwise it will NOT sound in the least bit "natural" and even then, different mic positions will likely pick-up different reflections/reverb, so matching the dialogue between different actors or different takes could well be next to impossible. Editing like this is obviously impractical, which is why you always need to record dialogue with as little of the location's natural reverb as possible.

In practise, a scene in this location is likely to be a prime candidate for ADR.

G

 

[harmonica44]

What kind of shots are you planning on using, masters, close ups, etc?

 

[mus]

Yes, provided you never need to edit the footage or the dialogue for the entire scene! If there is some editing, then you're only going to be able to edit at the end of the reverb tails otherwise it will NOT sound in the least bit "natural" and even then, different mic positions will likely pick-up different reflections/reverb, so matching the dialogue between different actors or different takes could well be next to impossible. Editing like this is obviously impractical, which is why you always need to record dialogue with as little of the location's natural reverb as possible.

In practise, a scene in this location is likely to be a prime candidate for ADR.

G

The audio can continue even as the next shot is beginning. Very easy, especially on a non-linear program. It's also very easy in an editing program as crappy as MovieMaker

 

[uhaulforlovers]

Lavalier mics should minimize the echo.

As well recording wild lines.

Your sound mixer should be able to give you guidance here.

 

[bez]

thanks for the input guys.... I think that gives me enough info to speak moderately intelligent on the topic. The location is visually pretty awesome...and I guess we're going to have to run some tests first.

 

[TheArtist]

The audio can continue even as the next shot is beginning. Very easy, especially on a non-linear program. It's also very easy in an editing program as crappy as MovieMaker

Can you stop contradicting everything on something you obviously don't know shit about ?

No, the audio cannot always continue as the next shot begins. Chances are someone else will be speaking, on top of the echo.

 

[mus]

Can you stop contradicting everything on something you obviously don't know shit about ?

No, the audio cannot always continue as the next shot begins. Chances are someone else will be speaking, on top of the echo.

Yeah, I totally don't know shit about anything.

All you need to do is put the audio clip of the next person talking on a separate track. The audio from the first character will trail off and continue as the audio from the next will begin. It is very simple.

I'm not contradicting for the sake of contradicting. I am contradicting because I know how to fucking edit sound

 

[Alcove Audio]

The location is visually pretty awesome...and I guess we're going to have to run some tests first.

Your location can be the best ever found in the history of indie filmmaking, but if you cannot capture clean, solid audio it doesn't do you much good.

The audio can continue even as the next shot is beginning. Very easy, especially on a non-linear program. It's also very easy in an editing program as crappy as MovieMaker

The only way this can happen is if the actors wait until the echoes die away COMPLETELY. Although your ears don't hear it that way, it may take a second or two for the echoes to fade away to nothing when captured by a microphone. So the actors would have to wait two or three seconds between each line to insure that the echoes are not audible.


You also need to keep in mind APEs warning about the character of the echoes. As you change positions in the alley the density and time between echoes is going to change. This could become very distracting when changing between close-ups, mid-shots, two-shots, etc.


This is a situation where you either must plan on doing ADR, or doing extensive wild lines after the scene is shot (most probably both) or finding a new location.

 

[mus]

The only way this can happen is if the actors wait until the echoes die away COMPLETELY. Although your ears don't hear it that way, it may take a second or two for the echoes to fade away to nothing when captured by a microphone. So the actors would have to wait two or three seconds between each line to insure that the echoes are not audible.

Yeah, I guess I forgot to mention that, since that's the way I would shoot it; Line by Line. But a good fade (or constant gain) can help if there are some takes where they forgot to do this.

 

[AudioPostExpert]

All you need to do is put the audio clip of the next person talking on a separate track. The audio from the first character will trail off and continue as the audio from the next will begin. It is very simple.

I'm not contradicting for the sake of contradicting. I am contradicting because I know how to fucking edit sound

In all honesty, you don't even seem to know what editing is! You are talking about just track-laying the dialogue but what if you actually need to edit it? What if you need to edit out extraneous sounds or replace just one or a couple of words in a sentence? You can't just use room tone to paper over the cracks because the background sound of the dialogue tracks is not constant but always contains varying amounts of echo decay. Trying to match the echo decay on the sounds/dialogue you are removing/replacing is going to be nightmare at best, impossible at worst and most definitely NOT very simple!

G

 

[mus]

What if you need to edit out extraneous sounds or replace just one or a couple of words in a sentence?
G

I assume you mean editing a line before the actor is actually finishing speaking. This is something that I wouldn't recommend in this location, but how that makes the sentence "You don't seem to know what editing is" true, I'll never know.

Trying to match the echo decay on the sounds/dialogue you are removing/replacing is going to be nightmare at best, impossible at worst and most definitely NOT very simple!

My point was not in matching the echo decay, it was in editing the shots in a very basic way.

For something that complicated (due to the echo) I would go to a....... (Drumroll)

Audio Post Expert

(With a paycheck)

 

[Chrisk]

Take the sound guy to the alley and ask him what he thinks. He won't think you're being stupid, in fact he will be pleasantly surprised that someone actually done what they are supposed to do and actually involved the soundy in pre-production.

 

[rocksure]

I agree with A.A and A.P.E in what they have said here.
Also I'd add that recording in spaces like alleys where there are echoes can also contribute to making speech less intelligible. If echo times in the particular alley mean that sounds arrive back at a microphone simultaneously with spoken words, the two sounds can blend causing words to sound more slurred or muffled. It may not be noticeable on every word, but on some words it may well cause problems in making speech less inteligible. If that does happen then you will have major troubles editing as has been already mentioned.