i recently purchased my first camera, the canon vixia hf200. it has a mini shoe for attaching a shotgun mic and wireless mic capabilities. im wondering which is better between the two or if its just personal preference. mostly though im looking for recomendations on what to purchase because sound is obviously extremely important
shot gun mic or wireless
- Thread starter circafade777
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I have the same camera although I've never used a mic hookup. However, I can say from general computer and electronic using experience, that if the only difference is wireless vs. wired. Wired is always safer (if at times less convenient). I'm not thinking it should affect sound, but wireless can just be more finicky when trying to get it to work. Which is not what you want when you've actually gathered all the minions for your shoot.
Dreadylocks is perfectly telling the truth. I have a Rode NTG-2 which is a shotgun mic, wired onto a boom pole. There are several aspects that you would need to look at to decide on this. Just wait until tomorrow when Alcove Audio is online. He will surely comment and help you tremendously for I am not even close enough to Alcove's intelligence to try. He helped me so much, and I know he will help you to.
I'm not trying to pass of my response, but I am not trained enough to be able to answer this.
I'm not trying to pass of my response, but I am not trained enough to be able to answer this.
I know my situation is a little different since I am doing Endurance sports Docs, all on the run. I put a Canon DM-100 on my HF100 and I get great sound. I can pick up a conversation 100's of feet away. With the manual control I can get good interview sound also. But this isn't a narrative situation either.
Without getting too into the hows and whys, let me just simply say this...
The camera is not the proper place to put a microphone.
Can it be done? Yes, but it shouldn't be done (except perhaps in some documentary/news gathering situations)
Your best bet would be to purchase a beachtek or juicedlink adapter, a good length 25-50' of xlr cable, boom, shock mount, and decent shotgun mic, and bring along someone to sling the boom while you shoot. Unless you haven't yet invested in a good tripod, in which case that should be your first priority.
The camera is not the proper place to put a microphone.
Can it be done? Yes, but it shouldn't be done (except perhaps in some documentary/news gathering situations)
Your best bet would be to purchase a beachtek or juicedlink adapter, a good length 25-50' of xlr cable, boom, shock mount, and decent shotgun mic, and bring along someone to sling the boom while you shoot. Unless you haven't yet invested in a good tripod, in which case that should be your first priority.
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Absolutely correct!
The basics of production sound are covered in my blog here on IndieTalk. Give it a read and then you will have an idea of what questions to ask.
yahhhh. im 18 and still in hs. i work a part time job at panera bread. i dont exactly have the budget for that stuff. Most of my earned money is goin towards a college education. The little money I can spend is going towards film making equipment. I spent a lot of money on the camera alone. so if you guys could give me a relatively cheap solution that would be helpful.
You've just made the biggest mistake of most fledgeling filmmakers; you get so focused (pardon the pun) on the camera that you ignored the fact that "Sound is half of the experience."
Sound for picture - which includes TV, video & computer games and even the internet - has gone through a radical transformation in the last 25 years. Digital technology has allowed for hundreds of audio tracks and the ability to control and tweak every single sound down to the minutest detail. Cheap and inexpensive audio (and video) products that can simulate what the professionals use have made their way down to the consumer level, but the expertise with which they are used is still an enigma to many. I can tell you step by step exactly what to do to capture and post the sound for your project, but you will not have the proper tools (unless you are willing to pay the price) or the qualitative experience.
Keep in mind that "cheap" and "inexpensive" are two very different things. I could give you a list of cheap gear and your sound would sound, well, cheap. I could (and did in my blog) give you a list of budget gear that would definitely do the job; however, as I mentioned above, having the gear is nowhere near enough (the same applies to the video gear). The lower your budget the more you have to preproduce and the more you will have to pay attention to the details - and you must know the capabilities of your gear inside and out.
Now I'm not trying to discourage you. Back when I was a touring musician (keyboards, musical director) I had relatively low-budget gear compared to many of my peers, yet most of them were quite impressed with my sounds. I had great sounds because I spent many hours learning how to program my synthesizers, endlessly tweaking the sounds and learning the techniques to make those sounds convincing; most of my peers would buy the toy-de-jour and push a button in the hopes that this would give them the sound they wanted. My audio post facility is also relatively low budget, but I've learned to make my investments wisely and spend hours learning the ins & outs of my gear when I'm not working, so I am able to put out very professional product.
So think it through carefully, make your investments wisely; if you buy cheap, you get cheap; if you buy quality, you've made an investment.
i feel that the story is the most important part to the film im just trying to get a couple pieces in place one being a camera to capture the image (which i have) and two being a mic to capture the sound better (looking for). i feel the story is what is truly important but we may have differing philosophies. the camera i hav is very solid and can already capture sound i would just like to improve upon it in an inexpensive fashion. that is what i am asking about. and please do not pick apart what i say. the camera i bought was the the most inexpensive one i could find that alowed for external mic such as shotgun and wireless(which i am inquiring about) along with other stipulations which in this post are irrelevent. I put a lot of research into what camera to buy for the budget i have and don't appreciate you calling it a mistake.
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Quoting parts of your post, or "picking apart" what you said makes it clear which part of the post is being addressed. There is no reason to be upset about this.circafade777 said:
Yes, the story is the most important thing, without it there's no reason to pull the gear out of the closet in the first place.circafade777 said:
But, even a visually beautiful film will become unwatchable if the audio sounds like it was phoned in.
The reason alcove referred to your purchase as a mistake is that it's a common occurrence. A fledgling filmmaker goes out and purchases a new camera. But then after spending $1000+ on it, doesn't feel additional investment should be necessary for proper audio gear as well. For home movies of the kids birthdays, that thought pattern is just fine, but when you're intending to use the camera for any sort of narrative or documentary filmmaking, it's frankly a little foolish.circafade777 said:
But don't feel that you're being picked on, or anything like that, this isn't a personal issue, it seems to be an almost universal issue. The advice and suggestions being provided to you are not intended to offend or make you feel bad about your purchases, quite the contrary. We'd prefer you to be happy about what you buy, and being able to put gear you buy to good use is a giant step in that direction.
Can you buy a $50 microphone with a 1/8" mini-jack that will plug right into your camera and make it work? Sure.. is it the best solution? Certainly not. We're trying to steer you toward more middle of the road equipment for several reasons:
- It will sound better
- It will last longer
- You'll be happier with it
To address your very first question, wireless or shotgun.. Wireless is almost always more of a headache. Buy cheap, and you'll get interference in even the best environments. Batteries start getting low, more interference and noise.
The cost involved in getting a reliable high quality wireless system, that is totally portable, is easily in the neighborhood of, if not more expensive than what your camera cost.
The concerns with shotgun mics are a bit less. They are highly directional, which is good it cuts out most of the background noise in most environments. However you still want to get the mic as close to the actor, interviewer, interviewee, etc as possible without it entering the shot.
Even a $4000 shotgun mic isn't going to sound all that amazing if it's mounted on the camera, that's just the way it is.
So you will want to use a boom pole, or maybe a mic stand with a boom arm if you're doing a sit down interview by yourself or something. Get the mic on the end of it, and keep it as close to the person speaking as possible without being in the shot. Pointing the tip of the mic to a spot about halfway between their mouth and center of the sternum tends to get a fairly articulate and full sound out of most shotgun mics.
The other concern you'll have to address is how to hook the mic up to your camera. Your camera, like many consumer and some prosumer level cameras, has an 1/8" jack for the microphone. The problem with this is that once you put the mic on a boom and move it across the room from where the camera is, the little 1/8" extension cable between the camera and mic turns into an antenna for electro-magnetic and RF interference. Shooting somewhere around overhead fluorescents? You'll almost certainly pick up the buzz of the ballast with this kind of setup.
There is, however, a solution to this issue. Several companies manufacture an adapter that lets you plug a balanced XLR cable into your little camera with an unbalanced input. The extra bonus is these adapters also give you separate volume control for each of the inputs (some have 4 inputs, most have 2)..
The two companies that come to mind are Beachtek and Juicedlink.
Juicedlink tends to be a bit more expensive than the Beachteks, due I believe to JL using slightly more expensive components, they claim to have better preamps that provide a much quieter signal. Honestly I've never been disappointed with my Beachtek, and people have commented on how clear it sounds on set before.
So.. if you look around (ebay is a good place to look) you should be able to find yourself a beachtek for right around $100 or so, and can probably find a shotgun/boom combo for just over $200..
I just looked and saw a boom, shockmount, 25' xlr cable, and Azden SGM-1x for $219 and a beachtek for $99
So, in the neighborhood of $300 you'll wind up with a nice little audio package and you could easily upgrade the mic later if needed. Rather than spending half that amount for something like the rode video mic which will wind up giving you headaches when you eventually do try to move it off of the camera onto a boom.
What is your budget for a mic and its related accessories?
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Never use a camera mounted mic - shotgun or wireless. If you want good sound, you have to have it near the subject - that's why you see boom poles in even Hollywood features, because the goal is to get the mic as close to the subject as possible - this isolates your subject, and cuts out most background noise. Do a comparison test for yourself and come to your own conclusions. Mics all have different properties, but regardless, you may have one really terrible directional and a slightly better omni-directional - the overall quality for a no-budget production is determined by your work... not these forms.
Thank you Will!
Circa - from my experience as an audio guy 99% of beginning filmmakers treat sound as an afterthought until they get into post, then they appear in my studio expecting me to save them. Hey, I'm a genius, not a miracle worker!
None of what I write is ever intended as a personal attack; I can only comment from my experience and perspective. Also, I'm not addressing just you but also the many others who are considering filmmaking as a profession who may benefit from my experience.
And by the way, you should develop a thick skin; this can be a very tough business. You are going have your work savagely attacked, maligned and torn apart much more often than you will get praised. Several of my peers and I regularly criticize each others work, which I find to be quite beneficial - once I get over the feeling of wanting to rip their heads off. It's difficult to understand, but you learn a lot more from negative criticism than having someone telling you how great you are.
An adult is someone who learns from their mistakes.
A professional is someone who learns from the mistakes of others.
A true professional knows that there is always something more to learn.
Thanks for the posts guys. This is exactly why I came here today. I bought my first camera online the other day kind of impulsively. I saw that it had a AV output and mistook that for mic jack(which it doesnt have), and felt rather foolish this morning when I re-read the camcorder review. I had read some of yall's posts and blogs before, so I knew I would have to spend a decent amount for good sound.
My question is what the ideal 'inexpensive' recording instrument would be? I've got one of those little pocket sized digital voice recorder (Olympus WS-311M), which my instinct says will not cut it. Any help?
My question is what the ideal 'inexpensive' recording instrument would be? I've got one of those little pocket sized digital voice recorder (Olympus WS-311M), which my instinct says will not cut it. Any help?
apologies gentlemen, just read the second thread.
"An adult is someone who learns from their mistakes.
A professional is someone who learns from the mistakes of others.
A true professional knows that there is always something more to learn."
exactly
A professional is someone who learns from the mistakes of others.
A true professional knows that there is always something more to learn."
exactly
I learned the hard way. I purchased a Canon HF100 at the very end of 2008 with a cheap piece of JUNK mic: some Azden SMX-10 ($70). It did not good.
1) It is 3.5 mm so if I tried to boom it, it would create hum and buzz. I was forced to mount it on my camcorder unless I wanted to here: The b--- gr---- r---- ---- - --- - - -- CRRRR ---- fought the bear ----- - - ----- CRRRR!
LESSON: Get XLR! It won't have the hum and buzz in which is found in 3.5mm mics no matter how long.
2)Thankfully it was battery powered so I didn't need phantom (my camcorder doesn't have phantom power).
TIP: Make sure you are either recording to a external recorder or now how you are going to hook it up to your camera with it working. Don't get phantom if your camcorder doesn't support it. That's why I just got the Rode NTG-2.
3)I mounted my mic on my camera thinking it would do fine. I get home and watch my videos of my christmas and I can't here anything!
LESSON: Boom it! I don't care if you use a $300 pro pole or a $20 homemade pole like I have. Whatever gets it off the camcorder as Alcove and Vincent have already stated it going to improve your audio by a long shot and will save you disappointment in post while editing.
Hope I helped. Just telling my testimony on audio (even though I pretty much repeated what Alcove and Vincent said)
DigiRoots
1) It is 3.5 mm so if I tried to boom it, it would create hum and buzz. I was forced to mount it on my camcorder unless I wanted to here: The b--- gr---- r---- ---- - --- - - -- CRRRR ---- fought the bear ----- - - ----- CRRRR!
LESSON: Get XLR! It won't have the hum and buzz in which is found in 3.5mm mics no matter how long.
2)Thankfully it was battery powered so I didn't need phantom (my camcorder doesn't have phantom power).
TIP: Make sure you are either recording to a external recorder or now how you are going to hook it up to your camera with it working. Don't get phantom if your camcorder doesn't support it. That's why I just got the Rode NTG-2.
3)I mounted my mic on my camera thinking it would do fine. I get home and watch my videos of my christmas and I can't here anything!
LESSON: Boom it! I don't care if you use a $300 pro pole or a $20 homemade pole like I have. Whatever gets it off the camcorder as Alcove and Vincent have already stated it going to improve your audio by a long shot and will save you disappointment in post while editing.
Hope I helped. Just telling my testimony on audio (even though I pretty much repeated what Alcove and Vincent said
)DigiRoots