Location Sound HELP

[kw0956]

Hey there everyone, Location Sound is something I know just about the minimum about - I mainly produce. But being that I mostly work on small, no-budget films I have had to act as the Boom Op in the past and have tried to do as much research as I can on the subject, however my ability to understand the technical aspects only runs so far which is why I come here for help today.

Right now our setup is that we have a DPA 4061 lav wired directly to a Zoom H4n on the actor, and we have a Sennheiser 416 shotgun mic also wired directly to a Zoom H4n. From my research and testing I know that these mics are both good quality, however I'm concerned that the use of the Zoom H4n's is bringing the audio quality down to a level where we might as well be using cheaper mics. I have read a lot of debate on whether the H4n is worth its money and whether its quality is usable for something that you want to have good production value.

The primary reason we got the H4n's was of course the price, durablity and the knowledge that they're a standard unit used by a lot of budget filmmakers. However I was wondering if anyone here could provide some insight for me in how much our recorder is effecting our sound quality.

I am also getting into researching mixers - but I fear that we might yet again not be able to afford a BoomOp/Location Sound manager and the mixer would be useless in my hands with my lack of technical knowledge.

Are the H4n's fine or should I invest in a better recorder for the sake of my mic quality? What excatly is a better recorder going to do for the quality of my sound and how much does the recorder effect the sound quality/clarity over the microphone?

Also last but not least. Can anyone then suggest a >$500 recorder that would significantly improve our sound quality?

Thank you in advance to any insight on this. I feel well over my head trying to sort out what gear we should invest in sometimes.

P.S - For anyone wondering, because we typically use student actors (and need to create our shooting schedules around their work/school schedules) our shoots for short films typically run 1 - 3 weeks long, for average 5 hours a day, 3-4 days out of the week. And that why it is cheaper for us to buy gear that we can re-sell if we need than to pay a day rate for a Location Sound guy that knows his stuff and has his own gear, unfortunately.

 

[Alcove Audio]

Right now our setup is that we have a DPA 4061 lav wired directly to a Zoom H4n on the actor, and we have a Sennheiser 416 shotgun mic also wired directly to a Zoom H4n. From my research and testing I know that these mics are both good quality

Yup, they're nice mics all right. What I can't understand is why you would spend $1,400 on nice mics, and then spend $200 on a piece of crap audio recorder.

The primary reason we got the H4n's was of course the price, durablity and the knowledge that they're a standard unit used by a lot of budget filmmakers.

Well, the durability is for crap, so you got hosed there. And the one and only reason they're popular with budget filmmakers is they were the first ultra-low-budget digital audio recorder so the Zoom name remains familiar; there are many better quality audio recorders out there, and have been for at least half-a-dozen years, such as the Fostex FR-2LE, Marantz PMD-661, Tascam HD-P2, Roland R-26 and, of course, the entire Tascam DR series.

I am also getting into researching mixers - but I fear that we might yet again not be able to afford a BoomOp/Location Sound manager and the mixer would be useless in my hands with my lack of technical knowledge.

Are the H4n's fine or should I invest in a better recorder for the sake of my mic quality? What excatly is a better recorder going to do for the quality of my sound and how much does the recorder effect the sound quality/clarity over the microphone?

Also last but not least. Can anyone then suggest a >$500 recorder that would significantly improve our sound quality?

A nice new Steinway will not make you a better piano player. Owning a Ferrari does not make you qualified to race on the GT circuit. At this time nothing you can buy will improve your sound. Improved knowledge and skill, and a lot more experience will solve your sound issues, not adding a mixer or buying a better recorder.

My personal suggestion is to retain someone who has the production sound knowledge that you require. Even an up-and-coming PSM/Boom-Op will do a better job than you - at least s/he wants the job, has the knowledge, is building the skill-set, and most probably, s/he already has the basic gear, meaning you won't have to buy any gear.


You should start by reading The Location Sound Bible by Ric Viers. You should also join Jeff Wexlers forum for production sound professionals.

http://jwsoundgroup.net/index.php?

 

[stef]

Without the attachments, I think the zoom H6 is fairly robust. I've knocked it around a little bit on at least 3 productions, and it's holding up fine. Preamps are hot enough to drive the NTG-1, and battery life is surprisingly good. Sound floor isn't great, but way better than the H4N and cheap tascams pre-60D. The Tascam 60D is supposed to be pretty solid and with great preamps, and the 70D even more useable.

After using an H4N, DR100, and H6, I think it's far easier to get decent sound as an amateur with even a slightly better recorder (SNR-wise).

But utilizing an expensive mic isn't the same, and is based on the mic's dynamics. I've been learning just how different mics are from each other, and like to play around with one for a while before using it on a take. Some have amazing sound but have to be aimed incredibly precisely. Others get tinny when you move off axis at all. Some drop off nicely without affecting the sound, which can easily be corrected. Others have a big tail, and you have to be very careful not to aim the back of it at an HID or something.

Mics are incredibly subtle, and there are so many interesting things you can do with them. And I've barely scratched the surface on sound... enough to learn a lot of respect that it's very deep in technique and experience. A couple thousand thrown at the problem can only go so far before you need someone with that experience to take it to the next several levels.

 

[Sweetie]

I mainly produce. I have had to act as the Boom Op

This would be my main concern, more than equipment choice. Boom op is an important position. It's akin to saying, "I mainly pour coffee, but since our budget is low, they've got me to direct so we save money"

I do hope you that have a PSM to guide you through your booming.

 

[kw0956]

This would be my main concern, more than equipment choice. Boom op is an important position. It's akin to saying, "I mainly pour coffee, but since our budget is low, they've got me to direct so we save money"

I do hope you that have a PSM to guide you through your booming.

Hey I agree with you 100% on that. It is less than ideal but all the responses we got for the position when we put out ads either 1) had about as much knowledge and experience as I did with sound or 2) Had a day rate we simply couldnt afford. We tried looking for students as well - it was just rare to come by anyone with the knowledge willing to work on a no budget short.

 

[Sweetie]

Are you also the PSM or have you found one?

 

[kw0956]

Are you also the PSM or have you found one?

Also the PSM. Not currently working on something but in the past I acted as both and if we can not find someone I imagine I will be for the next as well.

 

[Sweetie]

Ok,

I'm going to reiterate what Alcove suggested:

The Location Sound Bible by Ric Viers

Holding the boom is very much different from being responsible for the sound for the film. Since you're now responsible for it, you need to be thinking about everything sound. Equipment is only part of the equation.

There are plenty of other threads to read to get you in the right mindset. Learn, learn, learn. They'll get you to a point where you can ask good questions, though you may already be at that point.

In regards to the hardware, test out what you already have and see if it can deliver the result you want. It's easy to get caught up in the hardware trap where you're doing nothing but buying new hardware instead of focusing on your film making. Work out if what you have will deliver what you need. If not, then look for fixes.

Good luck with the production.

 

[AudioPostExpert]

I completely agree with what has already been said, namely that the skill/experience with which the equipment is used which is the determining factor. With that caveat clearly stated and hopefully understood, I'll address your technical questions:

I have read a lot of debate on whether the H4n is worth its money and whether its quality is usable for something that you want to have good production value.

1. Yes it is worth it's money, baring in mind "it's money" is extremely low! Essentially it's a prosumer grade dictaphone and as Alcove stated, it seems a bit bizarre to have fairly decent professional mics plugged into a prosumer dictaphone.

2. You would have to define "good" production value but as a generalisation, it is possible to obtain "good production value" with a H4N. However, "possible" and "likely" are two different things! In other words, given ideal recording circumstances it is possible to obtain good production values but ideal recording circumstances are extremely rare or non-existent in most lo/no budget filming situations!

However I was wondering if anyone here could provide some insight for me in how much our recorder is effecting our sound quality.

With field recorders it's not really the audio recording technology itself which affects the sound quality. There are only a handful of digital audio chip manufacturers in the world and there's relatively little sound quality difference between them. The difference in sound quality between field recorders is in the other required circuitry, most obviously the mic pre-amps, and the functionality, such as metering and limiting. This is also how a decent field mixer can be of service, better quality mic-pres (a less noisy range of gain settings), better metering (more accurate/less distorted levels), plus other additional functionality such as more input/output options.

Just to re-iterate though, a proper field recorder and/or a decent field mixer is going to make relatively little difference to your sound quality if you don't know how to use them or aren't proficient with mic placement/boom technique.

G