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How knowledgeable should directors be in cinematography?

Cinematographers - how knowledgeable/proficient should directors be in cinematography?

What about at the professional level, when larger budgets are involved? How about the indie level, when directors are making films on micro budgets (and probably won't be able to afford an experienced/well equipped cinematographer anyways)?

Are there any specific areas of cinematography that directors should focus on becoming proficient in, and others that can (and should) be left up to the cinematographer? Or should directors try to have a decent grasp of everything.

How much do you think a project suffers if a director is not well versed in cinematography? (once again, this can be different for projects with micro budgets and larger budgets). Generally speaking, do you prefer to work with directors who are heavily involved in cinematography, or directors who primarily focus on directing actors?
 
It's an audio visual medium, so what do you think?

I think it's important, but as you've suspected, it can come down to personal style. The less versed you are on the subject (and depends on what you mean by knowledgeable - You really need to know your job as a director, so picking shots, movement, blocking, lens choices... they're all essential to know) the more your film can stray from your vision. Doesn't mean it will stray, it just can.

should directors try to have a decent grasp of everything

This is the position I think directors should strive got. It doesn't mean they need to be able to do everything at a professional standard, but the more you know about a topic, the better you're going to be able to communicate with members of that department.
 
You can be Mike Leigh or Wes Anderson.

The director should, at least, be the jack of all trades. Moreover, he/she should be capable of seeing the entire picture. How do you direct anything you have no knowledge of?

As far as cinematography goes, the DP and Director have (or should have) a very close relationship which comes from working together and knowing each other's subject.

But that is how every relationship with a director "should" be, whether you are an actor or composer or editor or...
 
It's more important to have a vision, than to have specific knowledge. Of course some Directors bring more knowledge than others - some have very little idea, others have been Cinematographers themselves.

At the end of the day, the Director should have the overall vision and trust the Cinematographer to be able to take their vision and make it a visual reality. You should be able to talk colour and mood etc. rather than specifically about what lights to use.

Really, it comes down to what works for you. I heard a story about a certain Hollywood Director who dictated exactly where the camera should be, at what angle and height; then fired the Camera Op when they didn't follow exactly as they thought the shot they had set up would be better. Then there's people like Quentin Tarantino, who apparently operates at least one take of most shots, so that everyone can see exactly what he wants.

Then there's others who worry more about the actors or other things and trust the Cinematographer on the day to make it work.

It should always be collaborative IMO, and the Director and the Cinematographer should be pulling in the same direction on set - though they may discuss different ideas for certain shots. They should definitely collaborate on the shot list in pre IMO.

One of the first things I was told in film school is once on the set, the two most important questions the Director needs to ask himself are:
1)What do I tell the actors
2)Where do I put the camera (note: NOT how do I light this scene, where should the light motivation be)
That simplifies it a lot, but it highlights how the Director should overall be mostly concerned with getting the best performance out of the actors - there's a lot more to it, but they hire professional HODs in most other Departments to ensure their vision is enacted.

It really depends on you - and your Cinematographer - and the dynamic between the two of you and how you like to work
 
Im very inexperienced (practically none beside 2 short films during a weekend film course)...but I would think its important to at least grasp the basics, as how can you communicate what you want, if you don't understand shot angles etc....plus, if I was an actor, and saw the director struggling to describe the shot he wanted to a DoP, I would lose abit of faith in that director (but that's just me)......Am actually finding the role of DoP very interesting, but not interesting enough to train to become one
 
I actually have a very differed stance on this topic than other members of the site... It's generally popular in the no-budget side of the industry that the director is also the DP/Cinematographer/CameraOp (Which by the way Cinematographer is a loose term that I hate. Mostly it's thought that person is the Camera Op, but on industry standards they are just the DP.) so it's needed for THAT kind of director to know lighting and scene composition very well.

However, that's not a requirement in this industry, sure it helps, but you don't need to know how to work a camera or set up lighting plots. You can have ZERO technology knowledge and be an amazing director. Your job is the actors and the vision. You create your vision in AMAZING pre-production. You direct your actors during production to achieve that vision, your DP and Camera Op will get the shots. Then post-production you can sit with the editors to be shocked into awe as they can do anything you ask of them (then do the same with your colorist if that position is filled separately).

Now how practical is that? Plenty. You would just need to be amazing at doing that. In the no-budget industry... you'll need to be a bit more broad in skill set than that to make up for the lack of positions.
 
If you don't know anything about cameras, you're not a filmmaker and as a director, you'll be unable to come up with a realistic vision for your film.

To clarify: You don't need to know about cameras per se. You don't need to know how film speed works, or how exactly camera shutters work.

But you hsould have a knowledge of, or at least have a Cinematographer who can show you examples of the way these things affect the image. At the end of the day, if the Cinematographer says 'I think we should shoot this shallow DOF because it will really lend to the isolation the character feels' you should be able to say either 'yes I agree I think that will work well' or 'actually I'd like to go with deeper DOF and then maybe super shallow on the CUs to show that he's isolated but still in a very real world'

Or something

What I mean is the response shuoldn't be 'what's depth of field'
 
Jax rox, some of the tech stuff can be skipped, but you should be able to know what the camera can and cannot capture, without that, how can you have a vision?

Before I press "record" I already know what the final image will look like in edit and how I will cut it all together.

If one relies on a DOP to explain what you can or cannot capture, it doesn't do much for your vision, and it'll be costly. You'll also likely end up making the DOP's vision of the film.

IMO, there's really no short cut in relying on a DOP for your camera ineptude. Buy a cheap camera and experiment the heck out of it -- pushing it to it's limitations. Then if you want, hire a DOP and his camera and tell him exactly what you want. You'll be a significantly better director.
 
Jax rox, some of the tech stuff can be skipped, but you should be able to know what the camera can and cannot capture, without that, how can you have a vision?

Before I press "record" I already know what the final image will look like in edit and how I will cut it all together.

If one relies on a DOP to explain what you can or cannot capture, it doesn't do much for your vision, and it'll be costly. You'll also likely end up making the DOP's vision of the film.

IMO, there's really no short cut in relying on a DOP for your camera ineptude. Buy a cheap camera and experiment the heck out of it -- pushing it to it's limitations. Then if you want, hire a DOP and his camera and tell him exactly what you want. You'll be a significantly better director.

You seem to view a DP as merely a Camera Operator..?

I think maybe we're actually essentially saying the same thing, just in different ways.

It's not up to the Director to know how much dynamic range a specific camera has, or what specific lenses look like; which is why we do tests with Directors to find exactly what camera/lens combination is going to give us the look we want.
The Director might say 'how do you think this is going to work with all this guerilla-style night stuff' to which the DP might reply 'well let's test the F55, and the C500 with Cooke S5i's and let's also test Master Primes' - then the Director and the DP can look at the tests and pick the image they like best.

However, the Director should not come to the DP and say 'I want to shoot this on RED with CP2s' - it's not the Director's job to know, for example, what camera is best (and they usually don't, which is why we test and find what works best for each film) - it's their job to have a vision and be able to work with the Cinematographer to enable that vision.
 
I think maybe we're actually essentially saying the same thing, just in different ways.

:yes:

A director ought to know what can or can't be achieved with cameras in general. Can't run to a DOP every step of the way before or/during pre-prod. During prod, the director can confer with the DOP to film the vision he wants. But if he's being told it it can't be done or at great expense often, then his lack of understanding of cameras will wreck his vision, if not the film.
 
I actually have a very differed stance on this topic than other members of the site... It's generally popular in the no-budget side of the industry that the director is also the DP/Cinematographer/CameraOp (Which by the way Cinematographer is a loose term that I hate. Mostly it's thought that person is the Camera Op, but on industry standards they are just the DP.) so it's needed for THAT kind of director to know lighting and scene composition very well.

However, that's not a requirement in this industry, sure it helps, but you don't need to know how to work a camera or set up lighting plots. You can have ZERO technology knowledge and be an amazing director. Your job is the actors and the vision. You create your vision in AMAZING pre-production. You direct your actors during production to achieve that vision, your DP and Camera Op will get the shots. Then post-production you can sit with the editors to be shocked into awe as they can do anything you ask of them (then do the same with your colorist if that position is filled separately).

Now how practical is that? Plenty. You would just need to be amazing at doing that. In the no-budget industry... you'll need to be a bit more broad in skill set than that to make up for the lack of positions.

Practical for some… to be surrounded by professionals is a luxury many of us have yet to earn.

But here is another way to look at it. The more you understand lighting and lenses, the more you understand the language of cinema. And it is through language that we communicate our vision.
 
Practical for some… to be surrounded by professionals is a luxury many of us have yet to earn.

I never said the crew had to be professional for a director to simply focus on their job, but of course you do need a few people in order for that. Mainly a decent DP, which in order to really progress as a director you will need to know at least one.

But here is another way to look at it. The more you understand lighting and lenses, the more you understand the language of cinema. And it is through language that we communicate our vision.

Language of Cinema. Sure. But, there have been and there are countless "A"-list directors that have no concept of knowing how cameras work. They would fail if asked to set up an 8:1 cross key. However, they are good at their job, directing, and have the ability of saying "I'd like the partical to be the lamp behind them in the background and I feel like a slight contrast would help convey the raising tension." should be enough for a DP to work with. Picture the director as a client, you don't call a client stupid for not knowing the effects of a 50mm lens on a 2/3 sensor camera, do you?
 
Generally speaking, do you prefer to work with directors who are heavily involved in cinematography, or directors who primarily focus on directing actors?

Neither!! That's a bit of a bizarre question to be honest, it's a bit like asking which airplane manufacturer would you prefer; one which focuses on engine design or one who focuses on aerodynamics? In fact, an airplane manufacturer wouldn't be an airplane manufacturer even if it focused on engine design and aerodynamics equally because an actual airplane also needs avionics, control systems/surfaces, structural engineering, etc. Personally, I would prefer an airplane manufacturer who focuses on the airplane itself, on how ALL the components work together to result in a safe, flyable airplane!

In film terms, I suppose one could answer your question by saying that directing the actors is more important. On the basis that a director could in theory leave all the cinematography to the DOP but if the director is not directing the actors, then no one is! As with the airplane analogy though, directing the actors and cinematography are both fundamentally important components but "film" is more than just these two components. In practice, filmmaking is not about how good the cinematography or directing of the actors is, it's about how they AND all the other components of a film work together in harmony. It's this overview of how everything works together which must always be the primary focus of the director!

The director should, at least, be the jack of all trades.

I disagree. You really need to consider the meaning of the whole saying: Jack of all trades, master of none. The implication being; the more trades, the less mastery. The difficulty with filmmaking is that it involves so many diverse trades there's simply not the time/resources to become even a "Jack" of all of them, let alone a master. In practise what usually happens is that no/lo budget filmmakers are usually forced and/or decide to gain semi-mastery in some trades, become a "Jack" of some others, outsource some others and pretty much ignore other trades altogether! Not only is the advice to become a "Jack of all trades" impractical but the attempt to do so also seriously dilutes the attempt to gain any mastery of the trade of "directing" itself!

If you don't know anything about cameras, you're not a filmmaker and as a director, you'll be unable to come up with a realistic vision for your film.

One can easily have a vision for the film without knowing anything about cameras or other technical filmmaking equipment. In fact, there's a good argument for saying exactly the opposite! That technical knowledge restricts the "vision". Most, if not all of history's great filmmakers had a vision for their film/s which commonly either ignored or were simply ignorant of camera or other filmmaking equipment limitations. The result was either; that the expert operators of that equipment had to develop creative new ways of employing it, that new technology actually had to be invented, that the director had to compromise their vision or often, some sort of combination.

Obviously, at the no/lo budget level, one has fewer resources and therefore needs more consideration of what is "realistic" when developing a vision. On the other hand, at the no/lo budget level it's maybe even more important that HODs are pushed to find creative solutions beyond the apparent resource limitations. In other words, a balance needs to be reached and the director's job is to arbitrate the options presented by the experts (HODs), to best fulfil their "initial vision" and arrive at a "final vision" throughout development/pre-production. It is not possible for the director to be a master (or even an aspiring master) of all trades and therefore a final vision based solely on a director's mediocre understanding of the technical operation of all the filmmaking equipment/resources will, at best, be mediocre!! So yes, as Jax says; "the director doesn't need to know about cameras per se", they do however need to know enough about cinematography, all the other crafts and the language of film itself, in order to: 1. Communicate their initial vision effectively (to elicit appropriate options) and 2. Then evaluate the presented options in context of the other crafts and the whole film, to finalise a vision!

The more you understand lighting and lenses, the more you understand the language of cinema. And it is through language that we communicate our vision.

I don't agree with the first sentence, or rather I only agree with it within a certain context. Lighting and lenses are only a part of cinematography and cinematography is itself only a part of the language of film. It's a bit like saying, the more you understand/know vocabulary the better a writer you will be. While it's true that a better knowledge of vocabulary will probably improve one's writing skills, without syntax vocabulary is useless and even syntax and vocabulary together are effectively useless, unless one has actually has a story to tell or something worthwhile to communicate. The potential danger of delving too deeply into vocabulary is that it becomes easy to define language in terms of vocabulary and then it becomes an end in itself rather than just a means to an end! I see this sort of thing, as applied to filmmaking as a whole, extremely commonly here on IT. People focusing on certain aspects of certain filmmaking crafts, to the detriment of the film itself!

G
 
I'm definitely not a gear head, and I don't know how to set up a 8:1 cross key either. I'd have to google that.

Here is a little story though, I have a cool shot in criminal bounds ep 1 where the camera is spinning around into a reveal of the destination. Seems to be everyones favorite shot, but I was only able to conceptualize that in the first place because I know what a long lens does to the background, and how that effect is magnified when the camera is moving laterally.

Without my small amount of knowledge in cinematography this never would have happened.
 
I was only able to conceptualize that in the first place because I know what a long lens does to the background, and how that effect is magnified when the camera is moving laterally. Without my small amount of knowledge in cinematography this never would have happened.

I didn't say that a director should be totally ignorant of cinematography, only that he/she only needs enough understanding to be able to communicate with the DOP. Very few, if any, even of the top directors can "conceptualise" everything in a film and that is precisely why in development/pre-production the director brainstorms with his/her HODs to finalise the vision.

A DOP is of course a HOD and therefore absolutely should be an expert on all aspects of shot types and image acquisition. Now if you are also the acting DOP, in addition to being the director, then ideally you too should be an expert on shot types/acquisition. I'm not saying your shot didn't work well but maybe you could have done something even more effective if you'd have planned your shooting with an expert DOP (and other HODs!). Maybe some simpler or other technical shot would have worked better when considered ("conceptualised") in combination with a certain editing style, the sound/music and in context of your "conceptualisation" for the whole film? Even if you did achieve the best shot possible with your resources, are you certain all the shots you achieved were the best possible? Just some things to objectively consider, which is pretty much the whole point of needing a director in the first place!

G
 
OP here! Reading these responses was very interesting. People seem to have different opinions on what sort of technical knowledge directors should possess, but that's alright.

A new question: for directors who are just starting out in the true independent bracket, how feasible is it to hire a decent cinematographer, sound technician, and editor? Those three positions seem to be the most specialized skill-sets when making a film. Is this a realistic goal, or is it simply too expensive?

Where am I going with this. Well, in my mind, the skillsets of being a director or writer seem to be a bit more 'innate', whereas the skillsets of being a cinematographer, editor, and sound technician are very technological. There's a science to it. Because of this, the learning curve is steeper, the skill itself is more expensive to learn (as you need to access equipment to practice with in the first place), and as a result, finding skilled professionals in these fields who would be willing to work for low wages looks as if it would be more difficult overall. It seems as if skill is more variable at the various professional levels of being, say, a writer, and less variable in the more technical divisions of filmmaking. It's not particularly common, but there are numerous cases out there of writers who wrote very good material having never written a screenplay before. On the contrary, I don't know how many skilled cinematographers you'll find who haven't spent a lot of time learning the technical specifications of cinematography, or simply haven't had proper access to equipment yet.

If directors who try to hybridize and become a "jack of all trades" suffer by becoming a master at none, should they try to find DP's, sound techs, and editors to work with? Or at the low/no-budget stage, is it better for them to just take on those roles themselves and use it as a learning tool? Is the level of quality added to a film by hiring a no/low-budget/beginning DP worth the cost, when money is tight in the first place?

Sorry if this sounds confusing or off-topic. I really don't know much about the world of DP's. Reading other posts on here, it seems as if no-budget directors seem to turn towards doing the cinematography of their films themselves because finding a decent, skilled cinematographer to work with for cheap (or even free) is more difficult than finding, say, screenwriters, actors, and even other directors who will work for very little payoff. I'm not sure if the technical differences between the jobs of DP's/sound techs/editors versus writers/directors/actors plays a role, but please, correct me if I'm wrong.
 
I didn't say that a director should be totally ignorant of cinematography, only that he/she only needs enough understanding to be able to communicate with the DOP. Very few, if any, even of the top directors can "conceptualise" everything in a film and that is precisely why in development/pre-production the director brainstorms with his/her HODs to finalise the vision.

A DOP is of course a HOD and therefore absolutely should be an expert on all aspects of shot types and image acquisition. Now if you are also the acting DOP, in addition to being the director, then ideally you too should be an expert on shot types/acquisition. I'm not saying your shot didn't work well but maybe you could have done something even more effective if you'd have planned your shooting with an expert DOP (and other HODs!). Maybe some simpler or other technical shot would have worked better when considered ("conceptualised") in combination with a certain editing style, the sound/music and in context of your "conceptualisation" for the whole film? Even if you did achieve the best shot possible with your resources, are you certain all the shots you achieved were the best possible? Just some things to objectively consider, which is pretty much the whole point of needing a director in the first place!

G

Oh it absolutely wasn't the best I could have done.. I had two other really cool shots that I couldn't even use because I effed it up :D

I believe that things could always be improved upon for a product as complex as a film. I welcome input from all my cast and crew.

Just trying to strike a balance here between need and not needed to know, which it sounds like we're on the same page. You need a basic understanding as a director.

Reminds me of the citizen kane story, where welle's DOP told him he could teach him everything he needed to know about lenses in a single weekend.
 
A new question: for directors who are just starting out in the true independent bracket, how feasible is it to hire a decent cinematographer, sound technician, and editor? Those three positions seem to be the most specialized skill-sets when making a film. Is this a realistic goal, or is it simply too expensive?

If you're going for financing, it's not only feasible, it's critical. Even more so for a first time director. You should probably be adding some roles to that list. Producer, Production Designer, First AD and Production Manager... the list continues and may change depending on the requirements of the film.

whereas the skillsets of being a cinematographer, editor, and sound technician are very technological

The editor and cinematographer roles are both creative and technical. If you as a director hire people for those positions for their technical abilities, you may run into problems that you didn't foresee.

finding skilled professionals in these fields who would be willing to work for low wages looks as if it would be more difficult overall

The the editors job for an example. The less skilled the production crew are, the harder the editors job is to produce a quality end product. Same for the dialogue editor, sound mixer, grader and so on. Sometimes the production makes such a hatchet job of shooting, the editors (and others) job shifts from creating the best film possible to damage control.

Highly skilled people look for remuneration appropriate for their skill level. If you're looking to get someone on the cheap, you may find yourself needing to offer less tangible benefits, if it's even possible.

when money is tight in the first place?

That's pretty much the rock and a hard place. Not enough skills to fill the gaps. Not enough money to pay others with those skills to fill the gap. No momentum to ride the directors wave and so on.

There's no short answer. Each persons path is different. Chris Nolans path was to make a no budget feature using the resources he could gather, keeping the costs low by leveraging his own skills and favors.

Wes Ball leveraged a different path using both his knowledge of SFX and his passion for the subject matter (right time, right place) and was well prepared to pitch and ended up with a budget of $34mil for his first feature.

One thing in common with those two directors. They were both technically competent. There's a TV Series called The Directors Chair. See if you can find it and watch it. It might help budge, motivate and get your frame of mind in the right direction.

You have to find your own path. We cannot give it to you.

no-budget directors seem to turn towards doing the cinematography of their films

I don't. I'm rather weak in cinematography, though I have spent a lot of time nurturing relationships with and team up with strong cinematographers.

I'm not sure if the technical differences between the jobs of DP's/sound techs/editors versus writers/directors/actors plays a role

It does, and at the same time, it doesn't. I'm sure you can find DP's, editors, writers, directors, actors. Each has their own skill set and equipment requirement. The real question isn't whether you can get them, it's a question of their quality and usefulness to a production.

I could go on Facebook and find an editor easy enough. Could they do a better job than I could? Probably not. Could they do a better job than you? Probably. Could I ever do as good a job of editing as an academy award winning editor? Doubtful.
 
To become a skilled director you also need access to equipment or people with equipment to practice. And you need to have a clue about visual grammar to be able to communicate your vision with the cast, crew and audience.

Being a good director isn't as 'innate' as it may seem. The fact you don't must have all the equipment, doesn't make it innate. You still need to turn that talent into skills.

About finding crew:
you can post a crewcall a see what happens or you can join other people's projects to help them and get to know people.
 
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