Hostility

NickClapper

NickClapper

I used to come on Indietalk every day. I would post my own questions, thoughts and work here, and I'd respond to other people's questions, thoughts and work. As a community, there'd often be bickering here and there (I remember clashing with Cracker Funk over Avatar) but the focus of the forum was on constructive criticism and encouragement. People like Rik and Alcove repeatedly drew attention to faults in my work (and the work of others) but did it in a way that was polite and, above all, positive. People didn't constantly throw around qualifications or talk about how much better their own work is, we just got on with the process of critiquing and collaborating.

But I feel like a really hostile tone has crept into Indietalk. Primarily, this seems to be directed towards newer members, especially those whose work shows some inexperience. But it has also led, time after time, to clashes between experienced members.

I seldom come on Indietalk anymore (compared to what I used to, can't break an addiction that easily!) because even I - someone who has a long history on this forum of being realistic and considered about my work - can't make a post without potentially being contradicted. I started my feature film project a couple of years ago on a wave of support from the Indietalk. I finished it by being repeatedly criticised by members of the forum, and that marked a sad change for me.

Indietalk is the top Google result for 'independent film forum', yet a lot of us seem to have forgotten the spirit in which independent films are made. We need to nurture people's desire to make films. We need to encourage people to make the most of limited resources. We need to push people to improve their work and be true to their vision.

We don't need snarky responses to questions that have been asked before, just because someone is inexperienced or has only just joined our community. We don't need to recycle the same arguments time after time when someone has had to cut corners, or hasn't managed to make every element of their film work. We don't need to adopt a tone that is critical or patronising, even when we're criticising someone! A lot of the recent problems on this forum could've been solved simply if all members endeavoured to improve their tone when posting. That might mean throwing in the occasional smiley :) or just remembering that we're all working towards the same goal, even if we have different experiences or methods.

Anyhow, I'm sorry to pontificate like this but Indietalk has been very important to my formative years as a filmmaking and I don't want us to lose the ethos that made the site so great. I would've got nowhere in film if everyone had ignored my first thread (titled: 'Budgeting for Mic on T2i'). But people didn't and I became a relatively significant contributor to this site. If we scare even one person away by treating them in an unnecessarily hostile manner, then we'll have failed spectacularly to deliver on the spirit of the indie film community.
 
You know, I almost started a thread just like this yesterday.

I took an unintentional and somewhat long break (I'd sayy 6 months at least) from the site and have recently been getting active on here again. I agree with you, Nick, that this place isn't what it used to be. To the point that if I didn't still like catching up with some older members and keep abreast of what's going on in the indie world, I wouldn't come back at all.

Too many threads going off topic/getting hijacked in unhelpful ways and a bunch of completely non-film-related threads started on the regular. People being downright rude to one another, starting arguments and acting superior. It leaves a sour taste.

I've also noticed that there seems to be less mod activity (at least that regular browsers can see) and if it were up to me, I'd be wielding the temp and full Ban Hammer more liberally and not just for the extremely offensive and/or obvious trolls. That may be the only way to salvage this place, or maybe I'm indulging in hyperbole, idk.

Currently, I'm holding my breath, but unless there is an active effort to change, I don't see anything getting any better :(
 
I don't think banning everyone is the answer. Over modding drives people away. And I don't think people have been rude to new members

There was one forum I was on that was so uptight you weren't even allowed to use smileys/emoticons. needless to say I didn't stick around very long.

Nor is it necessary to call someone a douchebag because they are joking around or making a light hearted post. I got into an argument once with one guy, someone sent me a PM about it and then I added the argumentor to my ignore list.. haven't gotten to an argument with him since.

Simply a matter of messaging someone privately can go a long way
It might also help if the ignore feature worked better, you can still see when people create new threads. All it does is block the text of their posts
 
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SHUT UP NICK!!!! ;)

Seriously though, there does seem to be an ebb and flow to any given internet community. I think IndieTalk mostly lives in the positive, but there certainly has been some rudeness. I think things tend to even out, but understand the desire to take a break sometimes.
 
Good point Nick. I myself have been, ahem, not as kind to new members in the past. Hopefully we can bring a more friendly and positive atmosphere to the site again. This is my favorite site (actually, one of the only sites I really go to...), and hopefully this doesn't become part of the negative area that most of the internet has become.
 
NickClapper said:
a lot of us seem to have forgotten the spirit in which independent films are made. We need to nurture people's desire to make films. We need to encourage people to make the most of limited resources. We need to push people to improve their work and be true to their vision.
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Here here! :yes:

This is precisely why people like yourself need to hang around, because you understand this important concept.
 
sfoster said:
Nor is it necessary to call someone a douchebag because they are joking around or making a light hearted post.
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Since that's obviously directed at me, I'll address it. My comment was not specific to you or your post. It was in the same vein as this thread.

Specifically when it comes to posts from h44. The tone quickly turns sour with people taking pot-shots and telling him to, in so many words, stop asking questions, quit being a moron, and go make something.

If that's the extent of what you (the all encompassing 'you' not you specifically) have to contribute to the thread, move on to another one and contribute something useful and actually helpful.

The entire purpose of this forum is, well two fold -- to HELP each other become better, and promote/share work, etc. I would argue the first point being significantly more important.

I agree with the sentiment of Nick's post, and Dreddy's reply (and her similar reply in the recent h44 thread to which this comment refers). I agree to the point that I'm almost regretting re-upping my paid membership.


Things change, and that's the natural order of things. So expecting indietalk to be what it was 2, 3, 5 years ago would be silly. But there is so reason for everyone to be at eachothers throats constantly in every, or damned near every thread.
 
Group hug everyone

article-0-11AA3F21000005DC-685_964x674.jpg


I feel better now
 
I disagree on all counts.

When I first started, I was beaten up by a bunch of people. Lately, I've had nothing but praise.

Also, I strongly disagree about the mods. They recently banned my main shooting-partner-in-crime, 8Salacious9 and completely removed one of my threads.
 
Haha, Nick I remember our Avatar tiff, and in retrospect I was being WAY overly sensitive. Your comments that I objected to were totally innocent.

I agree with your overall sentiment. Yes, we absolutely should use this website to be supportive of each other, no matter our level of experience.

It's been many months since I've even looked at an H44 thread. Because they got under my skin, and I voiced my anger, on numerous occasion, sometimes in ruthless fashion. Eventually, I caught myself and realized there was no point in it. Everything you need to know, you learned in kindergarten -- if you can't say something nice, ...

I do think it's possible that we're looking at the past with rose-colored glasses, though. For starters, I'll admit that I was kind of a jerk back then. This is the first forum I've ever been an active member of, and it took me a little while to figure out online etiquette. Ironically, I made more friends when I was more brash. Still can't figure that one out.

I definitely recall some heavy negativity, coming from different people, when I was a new member of this forum. Everything hasn't always been puppy dogs and ice cream. Part of this might be a case of me getting back what I was putting out, but I definitely recall that a good handful of people actually tried to convince me to stop making Antihero.

I knew back then, and I know now, that asking for advice on the internet is bound to result in some asinine feedback. With near anonymity, people seem more likely to let their inner-asshole out, so you often have to sift through the crap to find the advice that is actually helpful. Assholes existed then, and they still exist now. But the people with good advice haven't gone away, either.

Either way, Nick's main point is one we should all take to heart -- let's do all we can to foster an environment that builds people up. :D
 
Cracker Funk said:
With near anonymity, people seem more likely to let their inner-asshole out, so you often have to sift through the crap to find the advice that is actually helpful.
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Truth. Even on occasion for those of us who don't hide behind a fake name. :lol:

Sometimes the even bigger issue is that (even with smilies) text doesn't have the same context that verbal communication has, so a comment made in jest, or sounding cruel but with the intent of being helpful gets somewhat lost in translation.


Aside from attitudinal things, what I miss most about how indietalk used to be was the LENGTHY replies chocked full of awesome information. Those are much fewer and far between these days, though in truth I probably wouldn't have the time to read them anymore anyway. :)
 
I think the reason most IT'ers are negative toward newcomers is because they usually just drop in to promote a short film, then never return again. Or make a film again
 
Say true.

And by the way, I miss both of you hanging around and posting more often @ Nick and Dready. As far as I can tell from an online vantage point, you're good people...exactly the sort who could help balance things out.
:)

I don't miss Salacious's hostility. I know you've gone out of your way to state how he's your good friend, gorillaonabike, and so I'm sorry to say it. For what it's worth, I would miss you if you left I.T. over it or for something else. You're the real deal. But with what little I know about the situation, I think the Webmaster or the mod who made the decision to at least give him a temporary ban made a reasonable call. Also, I would think, when it came to the thread you made to complain about it, it was even more so the right call to remove it because with that thread (I didn't get a chance to read most of it, but from what I did see...) the integrity, the image, the reputation of the forum was being dragged through the mud. It looked like it was shaping up to be the epitome of the kind of bad drama that, I think, the Webmaster has made clear he does not want on I.T. And over what? A pretty unfriendly post S. did make to a newcomer...and sounds like not the first.

I'm really disappointed to here there were members who actually tried to talk you out of making your film, CF. WTH? I do remember some ugly insults coming from someone who eventually did get (appropriately) banned. No need for their behavior.

And there are members who seem to think it's their job to, as Wheat recently put it (I guess in another context, I'm not sure about), kill their filmmaking dreams. Sometimes...a lot of times...I want to call them on it or lash out about it. It is as though they're actually trying to talk people out of filmmaking. It too often is as though they're trying to score points by demeaning someone else's work. But then I figure, well that's freedom of speech and opinion for ya, something I very much value. So, I settle for trying to exercise the old axiom: fight (or counter) speech with more speech, and try to offer something more supportive.

Not to undermine your point, Nick, which I very much agree with, but it really could be a lot worse. A lot worse. (Well, there may be areas of the forum which I don't usually visit. So maybe I haven't seen a lot of it. So maybe I'm misjudging how bad it has gotten.) I still remain impressed with how civil I.T. has remained over the years. (It sounds weird to say years. To have been on a forum for years. Hah, cool.) But a lot less snarkiness and hostility is still what the doctor ordered.

What is this, The Appretice? Survivor? Geess! :P
 
I think the forum is a reflection of the indie filmmaking community as a whole. A great way to kill a forum is to mold it into something else.

Look at the forum, it's alive and vibrant and generates a heck of a lot of traffic where others have not, or died, or migrated to a social media site. The owners of IT ought to be counting their blessings every day.

There are ALWAYS people moaning about the "old days" in forums. And people that moan about current state instead of quietly leaving are just as bad as drive-by-film distribution schemers.

While I doubt that the forum owners are rolling in dough, they've the kind of success that is the envy of many. Don't ask them to fuck with success!

The fact that I am still here is clear that the owners of this forum wants a forum reflective of all fractions of the filmmaking community and not an idealized utopia of some sort.

Carry on.
 
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Richy, the people who tried to convince to stop making the film all had good intentions. They were basically trying to tell me I wasn't ready. So I should clarify that they were trying to convince me to delay the production of Antihero, not cancel it. In my experience, I've come across only one person who had truly negative intentions and he's been banned (no, I'm not referring to 8s9).
 
Ah, nostalgia for trolls is equally fun. The name
ussinners
jumps to mind, but maybe I'm misremembering...

I remember that, once upon a time, I left feedback on someone's teaser trailer saying, 'This looks really good but tell me nothing about the film, so I don't think it does any actual teasing...' The next day, I looked in my PM inbox and that user had sent a string of threats that culminated in him sending me my home address (ascertained through looking up the registry of my website) and saying 'I know where you live.' Needless to say, he was banned.

I guess I'm rose-tinting the past, but I can't remember a time when a member with 1000+ posts was banned for relentless negativity. I think 8S9 contributed some good things to this forum, and it was great to see him collaborate with GOAB, but time after time he goaded new members. The trouble is, I don't think he's the only one or even the worst. If I'd been asked 'Who will respond negatively to this thread?', I could've guessed correctly.

It may be an overall trend in our industry, but the focus of responses at the moment seems to be reasons why you'll fail rather than how you can succeed. And, to my mind, that distinction is the very heart of the indie filmmaking spirit (which I realise sounds lame, but I'm quite earnest about).
 
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