Help me obi wan your my only hope

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Camera Obscura

Im Planning on getting my first camera soon and after much research im so hopelessly lost its almost laughable. I need one for under 1000 and before you scream T2i at me i was concerned about the jello effect or whatever and the 12 minute shooting window. Other than some short films im planning on shooting i was going to shoot some longboard videos ( like skateboarding ) but the two draw backs i mentioned are kind of scaring me off ( plus it almost seems akward to shoot video on something designed for stills but im a complete noob so what do i know) .... and then i have to buy external sound stuff and everything which i dont have the coin for presently. I really do love the picture quality u get with the T2i So should i get the T2i stock or is their some alternative im missing. Feel free to add any other info i need to know and/or yell at me :)
 
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Ok. I just got my shiny new T2i.. and I shall have NO problem w/ the 12 min thing. Do you really need to record 12 min or more w/o stopping ?? That would be a LONG LONG take. most all HD Camcorders have some issues w/ rolling shutter thing, not just an issue w/ HDSLRs, it is an issue w/ any camcorder in the $1,000 range unless you wish to go w/ a std. DV camcorder . If you are not gonna do fast pans side to sidie, not a big issue

TheT2i HDSLR does have an input for a mic, so if you are not needing bleeding edge best of the best sound, it will do, just get a mic w/ a 1/8" plug and your good. The HDSLR craze is about DOF, the control you will have being able to manually focus, set shutter speed and aperture. the ability to change lenses will give you a lot of flexibility and you really have a lot of control. If you will be thinking the cam will get exposed to dirt and moisture, spend a few $$ extra and get the 7D, it is the ruggedized version of the T2i w/ weatherproofing and has better stills capability.


The MOST important thing is to get a decent cam and master it, with all the flaws, quirks and issues. Learn to fully use the tools you have.
THEN you will be a filmmaker grasshoppersan.

GOOD LUCK !
 
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The twelve minute shots shouldn't be a problem. The sound is slightly more of a concern because if you plug a mic directly into the camera it's basically a waste of a microphone. But, to be honest, If you're looking to shoot HD footage you'll probably be looking at an external audio recorder anyway.

There are a lot of pros and cons of DSLRs. I will try and find you a link to Cracker Funk's excellent blog post on the subject.


http://www.indietalk.com/blog.php?b=103
http://www.indietalk.com/blog.php?b=104
 
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IndieBudget said:
Ok. I TheT2i HDSLR does have an input for a mic, so if you are not needing bleeding edge best of the best sound, it will do, just get a mic w/ a 1/8" plug and your good.
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NickClapper said:
The sound is slightly more of a concern because if you plug a mic directly into the camera it's basically a waste of a microphone. But, to be honest, If you're looking to shoot HD footage you'll probably be looking at an external audio recorder anyway.
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IB has got it wrong, Nick has got it right.

The audio sound quality is unGodly horrible on HDSLRs; if you can defeat the AGC it's merely terrible.

You'll find out - if you don't already know - that capturing solid production sound is my main hobbyhorse. Yeah, I'm a sound guy, audio post specifically, and it's my bias. But your audience has that bias too, whether they, and you, are aware of it or not. With the prevalence of YouTube and the success of "found footage" films such as "Blair Witch" and "Paranormal" the audience is used to "substandard" visuals, but will never, ever tolerate poor audio for any length of time, especially for a narrative project.

If you go with an HDSLR you will have to spend AT A MINIMUM $300+ on an audio recording device (H4n, DR-100) and another $200 to $300 on a microphone. That leaves you with $400 to $500 for the camera. Even with a camcorder you will spend close to the same amount of money (CX-231 or similar plus mic).

The options are:

A) Hire a professional

B) Hook up with an up-and-comer

C) Rent the gear

D) Buy the gear

I myself rent gear for field recording - it's more cost effective and I always get what I need for each particular situation rather than settling for what I have. It also means that I get to use (and play with) the latest greatest toys. Places like Trew Audio rent nice packages for a little over $125 per week.
 
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Camera Obscura said:
Other than some short films im planning on shooting i was going to shoot some longboard videos ( like skateboarding )
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Have you considered a GoPro for the longboarding videos? Not really as an A camera, but gets great footage for exactly what you are describing.

For the short films, rolling shutter isn't going to kill you, but it will be there. On the skateboard action stuff you have some very valid concerns. IB is also correct in pointing out that any CMOS camera (dslr or otherwise) will do the same thing.
 
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Alcove Audio said:
IB has got it wrong, Nick has got it right.

The audio sound quality is unGodly horrible on HDSLRs; if you can defeat the AGC it's merely terrible.
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Like Im gonna argue about sound w/ someone on this board who has "Alcove Audio" in his moniker...

See for yourself if it might work for you. It really depends on your budget and what you are wanting to record.
The guy in the video is using a $55 mic plugged into a T2i and has it set on the "tele" setting, which would add more distortion into the mix.
You can decide if that might work for you or if you want better sound Alcove is of course steering you in the right direction.
I don't think it sounds too bad below, but I myself will be using a Zoom H4n on my stuff as well as I want the best I can get within my budget.
The audio below was raw as the cam recorded it, so noise removal would help 4 sure , This was shot from about 10 feet and of course having a boom and having the mic close to the mouth would help even more.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mulBBnk_7J0
 
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CamObscura, the extra cost of the external recorder is a non-issue. In your price-range, you will not be able to get a camera that has balanced XLR input. And if you want good audio, you need XLR. So, with a $1,000 camcorder, you're going to have to buy an XLR adapter, and those are actually more expensive than an external recorder that you'll need with the DSLR.

IndieBudget, you're a cool guy, so I'm not trying to put down your input, but in this case I definitely wouldn't plug anything directly into my camera. The audio in that clip above sounds like shit. I actually do advocate plugging unbalanced mics (like the ATR-55) directly into the camera, but only when someone's working at the rock-bottom budget level (like somebody shooting on used miniDV). If you're going to spend $1,000 on a camera, I think you should spend some money on audio, too.

CamObscura, you can save $100 by buying the Japanese Kiss X4. It's the exact same camera. You just have to learn how to read Japanese, for the instruction manual. Either that, or download the English PDF manual. Also, though for your purposes, I do think you'll be happy with the T2i, your price-range could find you a neat used miniDV "prosumer"-level camcorder. It won't be HD. And you'll still have audio issues. But cameras like the Canon GL2 and the Sony VX2100 capture nice-looking footage, in my opinion, and you could probably find one on ebay in your price-range.
 
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Alcove,
I found it harsh (tonally), distorted (digital clipping) and compressed (lack of dynamics).
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Yes !

BUT

in the youtube example I gave , could one improve the sound significantly by:
  1. not using the tele setting
  2. getting the mic closer to the mouth than 10 feet ( I know you prolly have your shotguns 10 feet away huh ? )
  3. cleaning up in post

or are all of the problems caused simply by plugging the mic into the cam ??????????:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:


I know you are a sound god and im just an unworthy fool beneath you incapable of even recording a fart. I've never held the expensive toys you play with, Ive never done the magic that you can do.

but I still think one could get easily sound that any "non sound engineer god" would not find objectionable using that crappy mic, plugged into that crappy mic input and having some sweetening and clean up done in post. I just think that one on a budget can get by with on cam recording and a $55 mic using good sound principles and cleanup in post .



I do beg you to keep on giving advice that I need to try and get high quality sound in my productions. I find what you say invaluable and well worth listening to.


.
 
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IndieBudget said:
or are all of the problems caused simply by plugging the mic into the cam ??????????
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In my opinion and experience, yes. The audio recording capabilities
inside that camera are not good. The very best mic, operated by the
very best boom op is still going into what is essentially a still camera
through a 3.5mm stereo jack.

I'm no audio guy but I can tell you that the T2i body isn't set up to
capture good production audio. Of course you can "fix it in post" and
there are always workarounds if you have no other option, but yes,
the audio problems are caused by the mic jack and the recording
capabilities of that camera.

Most of you know I have not jumped on the DSLR bandwagon, but I
understand that those of you who have are devoted acolytes and that
they are fine cameras. But they are not the best camera for all applications.
Sometimes other options - even those without shallow DOF - are better
for some things.
 
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Of course you can "fix it in post" and
there are always workarounds if you have no other option,
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That was my only point. The guy said he was beginner looking to do some longboarding videos. not a feature, not a short to be submitted to a film festival. Figger get decent dialog and add some of that dope-smokin hippie music and Id watch it while riding the bus w/ Willie meself.

I believe if you starting to get serious and want good sound, you gotta spend a grand at least to get started, mic, boom, wireless lav, cables, shotgun, digital recorder, mixer, memory cards and that is using hard work to find bargains. If I did not have to drive 1 1/2 hrs to rent audio eqt Id prolly be better off renting pro gear, but I hate Houston traffic and I want to have my gear around when I get in a mood to play & learn AND I shoot regularly, so I want my own eqt.

The money might be better spent hiring an audio guy for a project and you would get the benefit of having a pro use pro eqt which would be best. Give me the same eqt as say Alcove would rent for a project and Im not going to get the same quality for sure.
 
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IndieBudget said:
If I did not have to drive 1 1/2 hrs to rent audio eqt Id prolly be better off renting pro gear
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Trew Audio delivers anywhere in North America.


Look, people ask and I give answers. And I am barely a disciple when it comes to audio. If you want to talk to Gods right hand sound men talk to Randy Thom, Walter Murch, Ben Burtt, Richard Beggs, Richard Hymns or Gary Rydstrom. I am unworthy to lick their sandal straps.

My mindset is always going to be will a person plunk down $8 dollars to see and hear the project, because, whether we like it or not, we are always going to have our work judged against the mega-budget productions. And those audiences will not tolerate crappy audio.

Audio is every bit as complex as visuals, but is given short shrift even in film schools. And it is much harder for filmmakers to assimilate; they can't see immediate results. What is worse is that most of todays up-and-comers have spent their lives listening to crappy compressed audio on iPods, TVs and laptops. When I was a kid (1970's) awesome sound was the holy grail; even if you weren't a musician you put a lot of money into your stereo, both at home and in your car. Now the ONLY place most of them will encounter a truly awesome sound system is in a movie theatre (or a concert by a major recording act which is a completely different animal).

And $1,000 for sound gear is minimal when you consider that a "Hollywood" sound cart can cost $100k or more; a lot more. But more than the expensive gear is the knowledge and experience. My point quite often is that if you use the wrong gear and don't at least attempt to apply proper technique it cannot be fixed in audio post; at best you'll be polishing turds.

"Sound is half of the experience" means that films are an audio-visual medium, not just a bunch of pretty pictures. At the low/no/micro budget level that means half of your time, half of your learning and half of your budget should go into sound.
 
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Thanks for all the feedback and i get what you guys are saying about the audio and being as in the future i want to get some actual like cinema stuff done i think ill get the T2i ( or that japanese alternate after i look into it ) and then save up for some sound equipment for later on down the road. I just really want to get a feel for the camera first anyway so i wont be filming anything that needs decent sound for awhile. Thanks again for all your guys input i appreciate it ( and im humbled by alcove audios dedication to sound lol INTENSE!)
 
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