Got a question for beginners.

[harmonica44]

I have almost started my own indie film to shoot. My own short film to enter into the festivals, to get my foot in the door. The thing is is that other directors and people in the business tell me I'm in over my head and should have had more practice. That is true I have hardly shot any footage before, nor have I done any mixing and editing.

I just all of a sudden realized that being a film director is what I want out of life. And I got two screenplays lined up. One a feature film, and one that was going to be a feature, but I condensed it down to a short for the film festivals, as a beginner. So I thought they are probably right and I should take a step back and practice with shooting and recording first. Practice directing with actors as well.

I am good friends with a DP who has been doing it for five years, and he knows some sound men in the business we can hire. I have two options here. I can hold off on making the film, and practice with actors and crewman who wanna work for free to improve their craft as well. But my DP and another crew member I met, both told me that this wouldn't really do me a lot of good. The reason is because I already got an experienced DP and can hire an experienced sound man.

So if I practice directing for months or a couple of years with other people, I still won't get much knowledge on how to make a short film because I am practicing with people just starting out. Where as if I make it now, I will be working with people who have been doing it for years, and know what to do.

My DP said that he thinks the script is good and he can help with directing, but feels I will do just fine, since he knows me. Don't get me wrong, it is a good idea and I do wanna practice with people just starting out in the mean time as well. But I do have a window of opportunity now to make this short as oppose to waiting later, when who knows if the same people might be available for cheap.

So the question is, will I really improve my craft as a director if I practice with inexperienced people, if I hire different experienced people later, anyway? Cause if not, then I really feel like I should take this window while I have it. The risk being I jumped the gun and made a film I wasn't ready for, I will have wasted my budget. But if I wait, the people could be gone, and the budget may have to grow. What do you people think?

 

[directorik]

The only thing you can do to learn is to DO.

Yes, you can learn a lot working with inexperienced people. And
you can learn by working with experienced people. You make it
sound like it’s one or the other. Make this short with the
experienced DP. Make five more with inexperienced people.

Don’t hold off.

The risk being I jumped the gun and made a film I wasn't ready for, I will have wasted my budget. But if I wait, the people could be gone, and the budget may have to grow. What do you people think?

This is a real risk. You just might waste the money by jumping
into to big of a project. One thing for sure, the people won't be
gone. There will always be people available willing to make a movie.

 

[Cracker Funk]

I second everything directorik said.

Your DP has been doing this five years. He knows you and has confidence in you. I take that as a good sign. If I were you, though, I would ask him to take on more responsibility than is normal for a DP, in regards to exactly what you shoot. Specifically, I would have him basically be in charge of all shot-selection (or at least be by your side to guide you through the process).

I produced a 48HFP short, in which I was DP and the director came from theater. He had no real experience directing for video. So, the relationship we worked out is that he was in charge of everything that happens, and I was in charge of how to shoot it. You could almost say I was co-director, but I was fine with being DP+. Anyway, it worked out splendidly, and I think you could benefit from a similar relationship. Obviously, it wouldn't do you any good to just let him make all the decisions, while you watch, so you should be working with him, but definitely let him have a strong guiding influence.

Best of luck!

 

[gpforet]

How many projects have you worked on as an assistant director? Production assistant, etc.

While it is true that you learn by doing, you learn from people who are doing it and have been doing it longer than you.

I am a member of several meet-up groups of filmmakers, and on more than one occasion, I have seen a director allow an AD to direct one setup, guiding them along the way.

Your DP is there to get the shot YOU want, not to tell you what shot you need.

Your sound guy is there to capture the audio YOU want, not to tell you what audio you want to get.

I have also been on sets where someone DECIDES they want to direct, has never worked on the lower rungs, and the results are usually a disaster. By the end of the day, it is the crew directing the director, and spending 2 or 3 times as long as necessary to get the shots.

What happens is you end up with a reputation of not knowing what you're doing, and people are reluctant to donate their time and gear if they know it's going to be a frustrating experience.

Now, on the other hand, if you're handing out checks at the end of the production, and paying everyone's day rate, then most of the crew will go along with whatever you want.

There are many, many roles associated with filmmaking, and it is a very collaborative artform.

ALL of the good directors I work with have come from lower rungs of filmmaking, either experienced actors, camera operators, production assistants, screenwriters who have been on sets while their story is being made into a film, and even a few sound people have made the step into the role of director.

What kind of investment are YOU willing to make to become a director?

You ask if you will really improve your craft as a director if you practice with inexperienced people. The answer is NO, you will improve your craft by working under the direction of more experienced people.

I have almost started my own indie film to shoot. My own short film to enter into the festivals, to get my foot in the door. The thing is is that other directors and people in the business tell me I'm in over my head and should have had more practice. That is true I have hardly shot any footage before, nor have I done any mixing and editing.

I just all of a sudden realized that being a film director is what I want out of life. And I got two screenplays lined up. One a feature film, and one that was going to be a feature, but I condensed it down to a short for the film festivals, as a beginner. So I thought they are probably right and I should take a step back and practice with shooting and recording first. Practice directing with actors as well.

I am good friends with a DP who has been doing it for five years, and he knows some sound men in the business we can hire. I have two options here. I can hold off on making the film, and practice with actors and crewman who wanna work for free to improve their craft as well. But my DP and another crew member I met, both told me that this wouldn't really do me a lot of good. The reason is because I already got an experienced DP and can hire an experienced sound man.

So if I practice directing for months or a couple of years with other people, I still won't get much knowledge on how to make a short film because I am practicing with people just starting out. Where as if I make it now, I will be working with people who have been doing it for years, and know what to do.

My DP said that he thinks the script is good and he can help with directing, but feels I will do just fine, since he knows me. Don't get me wrong, it is a good idea and I do wanna practice with people just starting out in the mean time as well. But I do have a window of opportunity now to make this short as oppose to waiting later, when who knows if the same people might be available for cheap.

So the question is, will I really improve my craft as a director if I practice with inexperienced people, if I hire different experienced people later, anyway? Cause if not, then I really feel like I should take this window while I have it. The risk being I jumped the gun and made a film I wasn't ready for, I will have wasted my budget. But if I wait, the people could be gone, and the budget may have to grow. What do you people think?

 

[Uranium City]

So if I practice directing for months or a couple of years with other people, I still won't get much knowledge on how to make a short film because I am practicing with people just starting out.

Wrong.

Make a movie, Saskatchewan!

I made my first one with a crew of two and two actors. It was 45 minutes long. I learned so much that it made the next one a lot easier. Rinse, repeat.

I don't think you can practice directing...I think you can only direct. Like George Carlin said about the Native American Rain Dance: is there Rain Dance practice? And if there is, does it rain during practice? And if it doesn't, how do you know if you have it right?

Make a movie! Then make another one. Then make another one. They are always risky, but if directing is what you want to do, get out there and direct.

 

[Alcove Audio]

Here's the deal, Harmonica...

You've been getting all kinds of confusing and contradictory advice. But that's because your immediate personal goals and your questions are at odds with each other.

In your very first posts here on IndieTalk you stated that you wanted to know what you needed to make festival-worthy projects, and the answers (including mine) were framed with that goal in mind. However, whether you like it or not, you have to face the reality that you don't know anything about filmmaking. And, I'm guessing, you don't have any equipment, and a minute budget with which to get what you need to get started.

Here's where you stand; you have no experience, in fact you barely even speak the language, and you have no gear, but you want to make films.

So this is what Uncle Bob recommends that you do...

Make a list of all your current assets; computer, audio/video interfacing, NLE & DAW software and plugins, camera & accessories, audio gear & accessories, lighting, etc. Also make a list of people you know and organizations available to you plus any other assets you can think of such as friends, relatives, teachers and the like. Now look at your available funds. You have to allocate your funds for maximum effectiveness, but first you have to know what your goal is.

Your current goal is to learn the art and craft of filmmaking, not make festival worthy projects (hey, you may get lucky, but the odds are against you). You learn by doing. Your first attempts will be bad; really, really bad. Why? You've never done it before. That's okay, we (hopefully) learn from our mistakes. The mistakes you try to avoid as best as you can are financial mistakes. So get yourself a cheap camera and some Home Depot lighting and start shooting shorts with your friends. If you want you can add a decent audio kit. Why the priority on audio? With the exception of the audio recorder the rest of the kit - mic, boom, etc. - will last you through lots and lots of cameras.

You should also work on any and every indie film project that you can find to gain additional experience. Work as a go'fer for your DP friend, be a PA, anything you can get involved with. If it's importing and logging takes for an editor, then that what you do. And in your copious spare time you read books, participate in forums, and watch indie films.

That's the beginning of your education; you're going to learn how much you don't know.

 

[directorik]

Do I understand correctly:

You have a set amount of money. No more.
You want to make ONE “festival worthy” movie.
You can’t afford to make more than this ONE movie.
You’re worried because this is your ONE shot to get your foot in
the door.

Am I right?

 

[harmonica44]

I can afford to make a couple of more but I would rather make a few worthy ones rather than a few bad ones. I have gotten on the scene of a one set so far and worked props and I am trying to get on another currently. I have watched my DP and seen his work. He shoots a lot of interviews for television and things like that though. He has done music video as well. I am wanting to make a suspense thriller so it will involve a different kind of directing.

I am planning on using some really cheap equipment from friends and we are going to practice shooting some action and chase scenes with that. Before hiring actors. I also am writing a shooting script of the short, so then I'll know exactly where I want the camera in what take and all. Aside from practicing shooting my own scenes of the script though and putting them together. I have talked to two people who made their own shorts and one at the film festivals they submitted theirs too. One guy won on his first short he wrote and directed in as a teenager, but he had a DP that had been doing it for a few years. Is that a Cinderella story, or is that understandable since he had DP?

The DP does understand he is doing more than the average DP and we will probably credit him as co-director. Can anyone think of anything else I should be practicing with? I will practice for a few months for sure. I still wanna keep that window of opportunity open, since my DP friend lives here for now. But am I still in over my head, or is there any more advice I can be given? Thanks.

 

[harmonica44]

Wrong.

Make a movie, Saskatchewan!

I made my first one with a crew of two and two actors. It was 45 minutes long. I learned so much that it made the next one a lot easier. Rinse, repeat.

I don't think you can practice directing...I think you can only direct. Like George Carlin said about the Native American Rain Dance: is there Rain Dance practice? And if there is, does it rain during practice? And if it doesn't, how do you know if you have it right?

Make a movie! Then make another one. Then make another one. They are always risky, but if directing is what you want to do, get out there and direct.

But your first film was a practice film, or one you actually sent into the festivals?

 

[Uranium City]

But your first film was a practice film, or one you actually sent into the festivals?

I've never made a "practice" film. My first film was submitted to festivals, but was not accepted. My second film, however, won an audience award at festival.

Can I ask how old you are?

 

[directorik]

I can afford to make a couple of more but I would rather make a few worthy ones rather than a few bad ones.

I hope you are different than every other director. Because this just
isn't a realistic goal. Making an excellent - even a "worthy" - film is
damn difficult. Of course everyone would rather not have to learn,
but be very, very good immediately. For every story like your friend
there are 100,000 stories not like that.

I hope you're the exception. I wish you the best and look forward to
seeing your first short.

 

[Alcove Audio]

 

[harmonica44]

Well I won't make a whole practice short but I do wanna shoot some practice scenes before hiring actors probably. I mean my first short has a fight/chase sequence. It would probably be a good idea to spend time shooting it for practice to get all the shots and angles right, so the fight is clear and well filmed. Even a lot of accomplished directors still film action scenes jerky, shaky or too close up. So it will probably look bad for a beginner I'm guessing.

 

[ItDonnedOnMe]

I don't understand why you wouldn't make a practice short? It really takes very little to make a short these days. If your goal as a director is to make complete films then you probably need to actually practice that - not just scenes. If you really don't have any experience you probably should plan to make quite a few practice shorts.

You're planning a fight/chase scene and think it might be worth practicing? I know a lot of people who have done dozens of those before they really start feeling like they're getting good at it... and that's just one part of your film.

Filmmaking's just like any other craft - you have to put in the time. If you suddenly decided to become a painter how many paintings do you think it would take before you started to get good? Why would filmmaking be any different?

 

[directorik]

ItDonnedOnMe nailed it.

No matter what you call it, this first film will be your first film. It
will be your "practice" film. Even if you surround yourself with
experienced people it will still be your first, "practice" film. Then
you will need to make more. Five more, eight more, maybe only
two more before you can make a good enough film.

Maybe you'll be like that "one guy" you mentioned and your
first film will be excellent. Uranium City said it, but it may have
not sunk in. No one makes "practice" films. We make our first
film and our second and our third. They are not "practice" films,
they are films. They are poor. And we get better as we grow and
learn.

I get the feeling you are hoping, desperately, that YOU will be the
exception.

 

[harmonica44]

Well I have script here which is very original, and a shocking twist in the end. I would like to make that my first good film. But even if I make other shorts before, it I don't have any other ideas for scripts. At least not for shorts. I have a few ideas for features, and have written a whole feature, so far, but this one was particularly easy to compress down to to ten minutes, and it is one of my best, and most original. So I would like to make that my first good, one but feel that maybe I should shoot other things first in order to get good. Or at least shoot this short a couple of times with very little budget, in order to make it good for shooting it with the bigger budget I have saved.

 

[Cracker Funk]

Well I have script here which is very original, and a shocking twist in the end. I would like to make that my first good film. But even if I make other shorts before, it I don't have any other ideas for scripts. At least not for shorts. I have a few ideas for features, and have written a whole feature, so far, but this one was particularly easy to compress down to to ten minutes, and it is one of my best, and most original. So I would like to make that my first good, one but feel that maybe I should shoot other things first in order to get good. Or at least shoot this short a couple of times with very little budget, in order to make it good for shooting it with the bigger budget I have saved.

Good ideas are a renewable resource. If you have a good idea, I don't think you need to save it for some future date. Use it now. And think of another good idea for your next production.

Just make your damn movie, and make is as best you can. But be aware that instant-acclaim isn't exactly a realistic goal. There is a learning-curve. That doesn't mean your first film will suck. That just means you have to judge it within it's proper context, and build upon every little success (and learn from each little failure).

Plus, you've got a DP friend who is somewhat experienced -- let this friend be a heavy influence, and it just might turn out nice (I still like my idea of asking him to be almost-co-director, or DP+).

 

[directorik]

We do seem to be running in circles and as Alcove Audio pointed
out; shouting at a wall.

It's up to you and you alone. You know how just about all of us feel.
The chances are your first film will be quite poor. You want this
script with the shocking twist in the end to be your first. You risk
everything as a first time director. No one here can know if your
first movie will be good, amazing, terrible or just a nice learning
experience. You can't know, your DP friend can't now.

You raise the chances of making a good film with each one you make.
Or, you're that rare, natural talent that hits it out of the park the
first time out.

 

[dar]

Well I have script here which is very original, and a shocking twist in the end. I would like to make that my first good film. But even if I make other shorts before, it I don't have any other ideas for scripts. At least not for shorts. I have a few ideas for features, and have written a whole feature, so far, but this one was particularly easy to compress down to to ten minutes, and it is one of my best, and most original. So I would like to make that my first good, one but feel that maybe I should shoot other things first in order to get good. Or at least shoot this short a couple of times with very little budget, in order to make it good for shooting it with the bigger budget I have saved.

I think Cracker Funk is spot-on. I'm not a filmmaker, but I know what it feels like to have a good idea, and be afraid that it's your only good idea. But, let's be honest, if you only have one good script in you, you won't get very far. And it's probably not true. It sounds like you have a lot of ideas, just one short at the moment. Make the short, and then come up with another short. Just don't get so attached to one idea that you feel your entire career will be made or broken with this one film.

Make the film! We're all looking forward to seeing it, and you'll get lots of good, constructive criticism here, even if it is flawed.

 

[Tinalera]

ItDonnedOnMe nailed it.

No matter what you call it, this first film will be your first film. It
will be your "practice" film. Even if you surround yourself with
experienced people it will still be your first, "practice" film. Then
you will need to make more. Five more, eight more, maybe only
two more before you can make a good enough film.

Maybe you'll be like that "one guy" you mentioned and your
first film will be excellent. Uranium City said it, but it may have
not sunk in. No one makes "practice" films. We make our first
film and our second and our third. They are not "practice" films,
they are films. They are poor. And we get better as we grow and
learn.

I get the feeling you are hoping, desperately, that YOU will be the
exception.

Pretty much this . Like any other type of creative form, you learn by doing, and you're always saying "I need to do *blank* better next time. It's a continual learning process, and I don't think it ever ends. You just have to "do it" and see your result, and go from there.


And you can show your film here, and you'll get feedback, good and constructive. I have yet to see anyone on these boards say about a film "That Sucked-you fail". They're pretty good about not doing that here!

Very supportive community here, and you lots of good feedback