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Composers: What information do you want from directors?

Working with composers is something I've struggled with as a director, a few times the music they composed didn't match my vision for the film.

What sort of information do you want the director to give you before you compose music for them?
 
As a composer myself, if I was working for you I would ask you a specific group of questions tailored to extract as much relevant information from you as possible because it seems that, as you pointed out, directors have a lot of trouble communicating what it is they're really looking for.

As an example, let's say I'm working on a 5 minute short with 3 main scenes/sections.
1) First I ask for the genre of music since this defines a lot of things in one go. I also ask that with this definition of genre they provide an example of how they understand that genre to help eliminate the potential for misunderstanding.
2) Next I ask what mood they're looking to create. This question on its own rarely answers any REAL questions I have and is just to break the ice for the next step - exploring their world, their ideas and their own interpretations of the content they create.
3) Now I ask them to provide me with a sample of what I will be working with if they already have something. If they don't I ask them for a script and any kind of other resource (artwork or photos). If it's a more complex story I also discuss back story with them.

From this I can get a good idea of what is needed and exceed what I am asked to do. As someone who makes music I am in a better position than the director to make something to fit their own work but I continually consult with them nonetheless to help them shape it with me. This is a continuous conversation between both parties in which I will send demos to give an idea, later I'll show them nearly finished versions to allow for final changes and then I'll send a master track.

Working with a composer is not a case of giving them directions and letting them loose into the wild, it is a collaborative process that helps consolidate the director's vision through the artist's own abilities and interpretation.
 
Every project with every director I've worked with has a different workflow. An important part of being a composer is learning to work with different people and learning to communicate (everyone communicates a little differently).

The most important part of getting what you want is during the revisions. The composer should send you rough drafts for each cue, with timecodes for where the files should start. If things aren't working out, you should let the composer know. We don't expect you to know music terms for what is working and what isn't, but if you can find a couple examples of music that is closer to the style that you want (the more examples the better, because otherwise you might get caught up in an established melody). If the hit points aren't where you want them, let the composer know (here's another place where timecodes are very handy). If you think a piece should be longer or shorter, let the composer know. If you think an instrument should be quieter or louder, let the composer know, or ask for stems so you can mix with the rest of the audio. That's the way it's done in the "real world" but a lot of people I work with aren't on that level yet (neither am I) and want a full mix of the music.

If the composer isn't willing to revise and take feedback, they're not a film composer. Seconding MetalRenard's statement, it's a collaboarative process. We (like you) also have healthy egos, so "I like that, but could you do something faster" or "that's nice, but I don't think it's really working for the scene. Could you try something more like <<whatever>>?" Work better than "do that one again".
 
We (like you) also have healthy egos, so "I like that, but could you do something faster" or "that's nice, but I don't think it's really working for the scene. Could you try something more like <<whatever>>?" Work better than "do that one again".
Haha, so true. We do. Big but often fragile egos, like many creative areas. I think it's because when you're doing a creative job, if you're doing it properly, you're giving people access to some parts of you on the inside you often keep to yourself. So when someone says "I don't like it" they're ripping apart that piece of you.
Therefore I can only encourage a healthier approach to giving feedback that JoshL has suggested.
Don't be afraid to point out the problems but make sure that you also point out the things you do like in it too.
 
My answers are based on my experience working on commercial products with relatively large budgets and therefore different in some regards to the answers you have already received. I leave it to you to decide how applicable my answers are (or are not) to your situation.

The two main professional workflows are roughly split into documentaries and dramas. With documentaries the composer is hired sometime around the start of post-production and supplied with a cue sheet detailing the music cues required. The composer creates the specified cues which the director either approves or provides a list of required corrections. With dramas, the composer is hired during pre-production and supplied with a script. After a period of time to study the script there is a meeting with the director where general questions are discussed such as: A detailed description of the genre, the target audience, the general motivations of the main characters, any points which are unclear or ambiguous from the script. From this info the composer can suggest/discuss/negotiate the musical genre which would be most appropriate. Before, during or just after production the composer would meet with the lead actors and discuss how they see and are approaching the characters they are playing, the character's motivations, mental state, etc. The composer would usually receive some rushes during production and would sometimes create some basic looped musical sketches which can be used by the picture editor as an editing aid in post-production. Another meeting would usually take place as soon as filming has wrapped (or even before it has wrapped) to review these musical sketches to make sure they are in roughly the same ball park as the director's expectation. Once picture lock has been achieved (and the composer has studied it) an in-depth spotting session/s would take place with the Composer, Editor, Director, Sound Designer and possibly Producer. The director and editor will usually have a rough list of locations where they want/think music cues would be appropriate.

As the composer I wouldn't expect the director to have a good understanding of music but I would expect them to have a good idea of how to use music. For example, with a music cue suggested by the director, why is the director suggesting a music cue at this point? There is usually a primary reason and one or more secondary reasons. For instance, a primary reason might be to plug a bit of a hole/aid the pacing and a secondary reason might be to help camouflage a clunky visual edit. I (the composer) would then ask a number of questions pertinent to the cue/scene such as: What is the primary emotional response you want to elicit from the audience? Are there any secondary responses/undercurrents required? Should the cue focus on/empathise with a particular character and if so why or should the cue focus purely on the overall situation? What are the precise character motivations you would/would not like the audience to be aware of? Should the cue confuse or simplify the plot, should it make any reference to an event which has already happened or to one which will happen? Then there are some more technical questions such as where exactly (time-code locations) the cue should start and stop, will it be a soft in/out, a hard in/out or do you want the ending/beginning looped for a period of time so you can decide during the final mix where you start the fade in/out? Any music cues I (the composer) suggest will be justified in terms of these same questions.

Directors will often have a much better idea of what they don't want than of what they do want and a composer always has to bare in mind that a director does not (and should not!) know exactly what they want. What I do expect of the director is that they have a highly detailed knowledge/vision of what they want their audience to be feeling, of all the characters and of all their motivations and of all the background story details which are not explicitly mentioned in the script. In my experience, directors who have some specific musical knowledge are often the most difficult to work with as they will sometimes try to use musical terminology and not fully appreciating the subtle implications/ambiguity of that terminology, end up inadvertently misleading the composer!

While we all have egos, when working professionally the composer's ego is usually at the very bottom of a long list of the director's priorities and composers need to accept this reality and get over it or find another line of work! Obviously though I would expect the director to have at least some respect for my opinions, otherwise why did they hire me but in most situations others' opinions carry more weight (for example: The editor, the sound designer, the re-recording mixer and always of course, the director and producer).

I hope some of this is useful.

G
 
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While we all have egos, when working professionally the composer's ego is usually at the very bottom of a long list of the director's priorities and composers need to accept this reality and get over it or find another line of work! Obviously though I would expect the director to have at least some respect for my opinions, otherwise why did they hire me but in most situations others' opinions carry more weight (for example: The editor, the sound designer, the re-recording mixer and always of course, the director and producer).

This rubbed me up the wrong way. I'm trying to teach common courtesy for indie film makers here and you're telling them to not give a damn about people they work with. They should be courteous to everyone they work with, composer, editor or actor, it doesn't matter, but here we're talking about composers so that's what came up.
Of course you have to be thick skinned to work in the music biz, it goes without saying! But it helps if you teach people to be respectful all the same, not just of my opinion but of my work.

We'd all get on better if people were a little friendlier.
 
This rubbed me up the wrong way.

1. I never said that directors should not deal their composers courteously!

2. I stated the reality of being a professional film score composer, not what it should be or what I feel it should be. In film, the composer is just a cog in a wheel and in reality should expect to be treated as such and not as the wheel itself. This of course is not saying, suggesting or implying that cogs should not be treated with courtesy or respect.

G
 
That is a VERY important lesson to learn: as a film composer, you do not have the final word on the music. You are working for hire, trying to realize someone else's vision. Maybe that great cue you wrote during scene 27 is the best piece of music that you've ever written, if the director doesn't like it, he doesn't like it, file it away and adapt it for another project. Maybe you're trying to do something musically clever with the score, but if the director wants the cliche, you need to do the cliche.

Sometimes, especially at the beginning, you'll run into a case where you understand how music for film works better than the director (and you should), but if he wants to do something different, you have to be comfortable going against your knowledge and instincts. That's not to say you can't make an arguement for doing things differently (again, collaborative work), but the final word, after you've had your say, is and should be in the hands of the director. If you want to have the final say, start a band.

But that's more advice for music folks than for directors. Again to the OP, communicate often, and don't be afraid to ask your composer to redo things until you get something you are both happy with! We music folks may be crazy, but we don't bite! Well, not much anyway!
 
Speaking from personal experience, I like to get into the director or producers, or whoever I am sitting down with and get into their head. I want to experience the film as they are. I feel since every project is a completely different journey, there is no set amount of information you can give your composer. But, with that being said, you want to give them everything you can to pull them into your world. Timing note, hit points... Blah blah blah, you want the composer who shares your vision or you need a different composer. Most composers who care about their project will dig around until they have what they need to fulfill your vision, thats what I strive to do and thats what most composers should strive to do. Let's face it, it is your film.... If your vision is not complete or what you wanted to be, it is reflected on you as the filmmaker, yes, the composer shares the blame as well but a composer who doesn't care will move on to their next project without the bat of an eyelash. I think the question that you should be asking is not what kind of information composers are looking for, but what kind of composer am I looking for? If you pull the composer into your head and have them share your vision for the film then the communication eases a lot and its not a two sided battering ram anymore. You need to be on the same page, in simpler words, if you find you and your composer are not on the same page or doesn't share your vision, no amount of information or communication will change that, and it will lead to your ultimate disappointment. Im telling you, find a composer who wants to score your film, whos music inspires you, and who never stops making you go "Wow, I had no idea it could be this good!" and the information you translate to each other will work out on it's own.

-DT
 
I always wondered if there was a book or a course to learn the proper wording to ask to a composer for the right things. Terminology, a basic musical theory and mostly orchestration knowledge. I tried to do this by myself but it's very hard to get there.
I think it would be really useful to use the same language they do, and it would save them a lot of headaches.
 
I always wondered if there was a book or a course to learn the proper wording to ask to a composer for the right things. Terminology, a basic musical theory and mostly orchestration knowledge. I tried to do this by myself but it's very hard to get there.
I think it would be really useful to use the same language they do, and it would save them a lot of headaches.

No it wouldn't, there's probably an equal chance that it would cause more headaches! For two reasons:

1. Most musical terminology is relative and very imprecise. Music is an art form and as such it is impossible to describe accurately using terminology or any other form of communication.

2. Particularly at the no budget level, you are most likely to be dealing with inexperienced composers who may not know the terminology themselves very well. Even at the very high budget level, I know of famous film score composers who know very little about notation and music terminology.

An example which you might appreciate given your location, the musical term "forte". Most inexperienced and even some experienced composers would consider this term to mean "loud". That's not exactly what it really means in Italian and not exactly what it might mean to a composer. Forte means Strong and it is possible for something to be both strong and quiet, even though in musical terminology forte would usually mean loud. Fortissimo in Italian is the superlative and usually also in music terminology but again not always, it varies from composer to composer. Forte in music is notated as "f" and Fortissimo as "ff", Tchaikovsky as an example, often used "ff" (fortissimo) but occasionally he used "fff", "ffff" and on at least one occasion "ffffff"! If "ff" is the superlative, what on earth is "ffffff"?

Do yourself a favour and don't try to use music terminology, the chances are that you'll either imply something you don't intend or the composer will interpret it incorrectly (for whatever reason). Just stick to explaining in normal spoken language your story, characters and what you want each music cue to achieve.

G
 
The best way to do it is to use specific examples of existing music. I have found that the more detailed a verbal description I get and the closer I try to follow it the worse reaction I end up with.

The most success I have had is when I ignored all of the specifics of the direction - took the broad sweep of direction and did what I felt was right for the material.

Some of the work that I have had rejected by directors is some of my favorite work and I can't wait to find a project to use it on........
 
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