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Audio sync issues

So I have an interesting dilemma that I am finding. Here is what I am trying to do. I am making a video explaining a little boom setup I have. I have two pieces of audio. One piece is from a Tascam DR-40 that was recording me from a shotgun mic on a pole at a rate of 96kHz / 24-bit wav. My other audio source was from a microphone I was holding in my hand, running to my camera, and recorded along with the video.

Here is the issue, when I sync the two audio files, at the beginning it sounds perfect...but then when I go to the end, about 4 minutes in, the audio is off by this tiny fraction causing a weird vocal difference slowly towards the end. I am looking to play them on top of each other so I continue to capture me talking for when I step from out under the boom mic.

So why would this be? Also, how could I possibly fix this using Adobe Audition? I cant seem to find a simple way of compressing the clip length to match the other. Thanks for any and all help. Let me know if you need more info!
 
It's possible you have a conflict with your sample rates. Also, you'll need to make sure you render anything that needs rendering. And mix down, if needed, too.

Four minutes straight? That's a LONG clip. And, yes, audio synch issue with long clips are quite common. The simple solution is just to remove a frame out of the longer track. Find a dead area or an area where someone is elongating a vowel or an "s" sound. Then cinch the severed clips back together and add a small cross fade on the splice.

Sorry, that's the best solution I can give without knowing the full parameters of your project. There are a myriad of factors so you may want to just barf out every technical detail that's relevant.... to help find a solution.


Shanked
 
It has nothing to do with sample rates. Even in the digital age unless you are running all of the cameras and audio recorders off of a common sync clock you will have drift issues.

You are probably off by .004 or some small number like that. The "solution" is to look for a break in the audio every 30 to 40 seconds, then cut and resync the DR-40 audio to the camera audio. You will probably have to do this by looking at the wave forms at the sample level or lower to insure that you avoid the phasing issues you are currently encountering.
 
More and more does it become clear...There is never an easy fix for some things, haha. Yeah, I found its off by about .013 from start to the 4 minute mark. Learn something new every day and in turn have a greater appreciation for those who deal with the audio side of things. Thanks for the help guys. The reason for such a long clip was to sync the audio, then link it to the video, THEN start cutting it apart so I wouldn't have to resync things. Oh well. Lesson learned.

Side note, the Tascom DR-40 blows. After messing with Tascam for a few months of back and forth units, I found, and was told by there sales manager, that the unit does not support unbalanced microphones. I have been getting audio noise in my recordings. Well to my surprise "not really" I decided to record with nothing hooked up to the units Left XLR channel. I found buried in the audio was the exact same audio noise signal I was getting when I had my mic hooked up. So I am to assume once my mic was connected that noise becomes amplified. Blah.
 
As Alcove has said, you need a common sync clock. All digital audio gear requires an internal clock to measure the position of the sampling points, 96,000 of them per second in your case. No two clocks are ever going to be precisely in time with each other so over time the audio from two (or more) recording devices is going to drift out of sync. That's why you need to slave all audio recording devices to a single master clock.

Even with professional audio tools, there's no quick fix for this problem. Without professional tools the best you can do is take Alcove's advice and try to minimise the problem with editing but you'll never quite get precise phase accurate sync between the two recordings.

Although it's not related to your problem, why are you recording at a sample rate of 96kHz?

G
 
The camera(s) and the audio recorder(s) need to be designed from the beginning to accept and/or generate time code (many mid-priced recorders, Sound Devices "T" recorders [because the "t" stands for Time Code - duh!] and almost all Zaxcom devices). Then they all run off of a common sync. I don't even know what they're using these days. SMPTE (Society of Motion Picture Technicians and Engineers)? Black burst? GenLock? But, even at the mega-budget level there really is no sync for film; they may use digital slates and a dozen other fancy devices, but film and production sound are still synced manually to this day.

I do remember a while back that production sound mixers were buzzing about about a new box called "TimeCode Buddy" that apparently can buffer/sync different types of time code references or something.

BTW, even with generated sync, there will eventually be sync issues on extremely long takes.
 
How does one do that? Is a master clock just a device you buy, plug, and play? Are there any that are both good and cheap?

The camera(s) and the audio recorder(s) need to be designed from the beginning to accept and/or generate time code (many mid-priced recorders, Sound Devices "T" recorders [because the "t" stands for Time Code - duh!] and almost all Zaxcom devices). Then they all run off of a common sync. I don't even know what they're using these days. SMPTE (Society of Motion Picture Technicians and Engineers)? Black burst? GenLock? But, even at the mega-budget level there really is no sync for film; they may use digital slates and a dozen other fancy devices, but film and production sound are still synced manually to this day.

Mmm, partly correct. When you start getting into the guts of it, synchronisation is quite a complex subject area. Part of the complexity is due to the history and different methods used to achieve sync. In the old analogue days pilot tones and neo-pilot tones were used to help sync cameras and sound recorders. Then came LTC (Longitudinal Time Code) to sync film or tape based cameras to DAT recorders (Digital Audio Tape recorders). Today with file based audio recording we can achieve extremely high sync accuracy but it's complicated by terms such as, bi and tri-level sync, word clock, video ref, black burst, genlock and others. It's not quite as complicated as it seems and I'll try and keep this a simple as possible:

There are two sides to synchronisation: Positional Reference (where are we) and Timing Reference (how fast we are going). Knowing how fast we are going (Timing Ref) is essential to maintaining sync but we need to have a common starting point, this is why we need a Positional Reference (time code). Think of synchronising running athletes, not only do they need to run at exactly the same speed (Timing Ref) but they also need to have exactly the same starting point (Positional Ref).

Positional Ref: File based audio recording systems record a single time code stamp in the audio file's metadata, which provides an initial Positional Reference. As there is no continuous time code recorded in digital audio files, Time-Code (Positional Reference) cannot be used to synchronise file based digital audio equipment, just provide a common starting point for cameras and audio recorders.

Timing Ref: Timing ref is a little more complicated, the timing reference signal used by all digital audio equipment is called "Word Clock". Whenever synchronising any type of digital audio equipment (mixers, DAWs, converters, recorders, etc.) Word Clock must be used, either with one piece of equipment (usually the A/D converter) acting as the word clock master and all other equipment set to be word clock slaves or by having a dedicated master word clock unit with all the digital audio equipment slaved to it. What makes timing ref a little complicated is that word clock is not used for sync'ing picture, bi-level sync (or in the case of high def tri-level sync) is used. The signal which carries this picture sync info is often called Black and Burst or more accurately and commonly today, Video Ref. How we generate, distribute and combine these two different timing protocols (video ref and word clock) depends on the equipment being used. If the audio equipment only has word clock input we will need a master clock unit capable of generating a video ref signal and a word clock signal from a single internal clock with outputs connecting (via bnc cables) to the video ref input on the camera/s and simultaneously to the word clock input of the audio recorder.

Higher end audio recorders designed specifically for A/V applications have a video ref input (which is then converted internally into word clock) and therefore only a video ref (sync) generator is required. Sync generators are generally much cheaper than master clocks (sync gens) with multiple output protocols but then audio equipment with video ref inputs is usually more expensive, so you pay for it one way or another! BlackMagic Design do a good sync generator for under $300.

There are in fact quite a few different ways of generating and distributing timing ref though. About the best method I'm aware of and becoming increasingly common is GPS based sync. This is a special GPS unit attached to each camera and audio recorder. The timing reference is extracted from a GPS signal which is generated by an atomic clock. This system is extremely accurate, very flexible (because it's wireless) and I should imagine pretty expensive.

Once all the picture and audio equipment is locked to the timing ref signal the system is said to be Genlocked, Fully Resolved or Frame Edge Aligned.

What I hope is obvious from all this is that it's obviously impossible to achieve this level of sync unless all the cameras and audio equipment actually have the facility to generate or receive a timing ref signal (video ref and/or word clock) and unfortunately, most pro-sumer level equipment does not.

BTW, even with generated sync, there will eventually be sync issues on extremely long takes.

This statement is not correct. Setting up a frame edge aligned system should allow for close to sample accurate sync over extended time periods. IE, sync accuracy of better than a quarter of a frame in a 24 hour period. It should be noted though that frame edge alignment must also be carried over in post production. IE, A sync generator locking both the video card and DAW to a single master timing ref signal. In the case of ProTools, this means a ProTools HD system with a Sync HD, a sync generator and a video card such as the BM Studio II or HD Extreme which have a video ref input.

G
 
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Excellent info guys! I think this will help out more people than myself. I can say the Tascam DR-40 sadly doesn't even do a passable job. At least not for me as I must de-noise the audio for it to be passable. I did discover a setting called "Automatic Phase Correction" in Abobe Audition. So maybe that is something that could help?
 
I haven't used a DR40 so I can't be sure but Tascam stuff is usually decent quality for the price. So, I'm surprised you have to apply noise reduction constantly. It could be a gain staging problem, where do you try to keep the meters on average when recording?

You could try the Auto Phase Correction, it might work but I think it would struggle to go a good job. My guess is this function is designed to phase align signals which are out of phase by a constant amount. For example phase issues caused by having two mics at different distances to the source. This is a relatively simple process of measuring the phase difference between the two channels and moving one by a small amount relative to the other to compensate. In your case though the phase gradually drifts, so the phase differential is never constant. It highly doubtful that the function in Adobe is sophisticated enough to be able to cope with a constantly varying phase difference, it's worth a shot though, just in case.

G
 
Probably more of a booming issue than a pre-amp issue, unless you

* have a defective unit
* are using incorrect settings (like using the 'line' setting when using a low-Z mic.)
* are in a noisy environment

And, once again, what the hell do you expect for $150?

Why not post a sample so we can hear it?
 
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I would expect something usable or at least better audio than a Zoom H1. I was using the Mic setting and also tried the Phantom as well since my mic is capable of it. Anyways, when I recorded this clip, I made sure that nothing in my house was on. No lights, no frig, no phones, no wifi. I also live in a relatively quite environment. Something I forgot to mention, is that if you hit the menu key while recording the noise almost completely goes away...at least it did with the first two units. This third one that I am now stuck with has a clicking noise that wont go away.

Here is the link to download the clip. It seems to be low in volume and I believe the gain on the Tascam was set to 47. So when you increase the volume of the clip you will hear the difference from when I hit the menu key. http://www.mediafire.com/?pd6a8xa8jyd12du

Another thing I discovered with this third unit as I tested it a bit more was that the noise pattern is part of the unit. What I mean by that is, if I plug in nothing and leave the settings as if I were recording from my shotgun mic, the noise pattern exists. I increase the gain, record, then bring the file into Adobe Audition. There I can see that exact same pattern displayed in the wavelength. Its as if once a mic is connected its amplified.

Do a google search for "tascam dr-40 helicopter noise" and you will see I am not the only one who has found this problem. It may be a small fry unit to some people but for me it was an investment that I hoped would increase the quality of my audio with less hassle.
 
I can only go by what Jeff Wexler & Co. say on his forum. Those are the guys I go to for reliable production sound help.

You may have misunderstood the context of their statement, which is entirely understandable considering how complex this area can get. However, a properly genlocked system, IE., using a single video ref or word clock signal will NOT drift. The mistake sometimes made, even by some experienced professional production sound mixers, is that drift is still possible on long takes if only sync'ing with serial timecode, depending on the audio recording device.

Think of it this way, say you have a two channel converter with both channels being fed the same audio signal, will one of the channels ever drift relative to the other? The answer is no because converters only have one internal clock supplying the timing ref (word clock) to each individual channel of ADC. Multichannel digital audio recording would be largely unusable if converters were not able to fully resolve the timing between their individual audio channels. The idea of using a sync generator and timing reference inputs is to bypass the internal clock of each individual piece of equipment, so everything is running from a single timing reference, the same as the individual channels of ADC do inside a multichannel converter.

Adding a sync generator and buying all the equipment necessary (in production and post production) to guarantee a frame edge, genlocked system costs many, many thousands of dollars. Why would anyone bother with this additional cost and system complexity if they're still going to get drift? Imagine trying to film a concert or an event like a Formula 1 race, where a single take could last 3 hours or more, genlocking is the only guarantee of accurate sync. AFAIK, high budget films usually genlock their systems, even if they aren't going to be doing long takes, just to be absolutely sure of sync. Certainly, ALL the higher end audio post houses I've ever been to have frame edge aligned, genlocked systems and it's also a Dolby Certification requirement.

G
 
Zim:- If it wasn't for the fact that the sound goes away when you press the menu button I would have said it sounds like an RF interference problem. But from what you've described and the fact it's on more than one unit I would say the DR40 sounds like it has a design flaw. Even at it's low price point, the sound it's making is completely unacceptable and I would be back where I bought it from demanding a refund or to exchange it for a different model.

G
 
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